Barack Obama, the Antichrist?

An appalling ignorance of Hebrew is being used to perpetrate an absurd theory. This is one of the most sordid uses of Hebrew linguistics to support the claim that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. I would not spend much time on it, except that even some recognized "news" organizations are giving it coverage. In any case, this ridiculous argument comes from a YouTube video: YouTubeVideo

[John's 3/26/10 Edit: The YouTube video was updated since Dr, Avalos wrote his post. But 24% of Republicans think President Obama is the antichrist. LOL!!!]

According to a man calling himself PPSimmons (the presumed narrator of the YouTube video), Barack Obama is mentioned in Luke 10:18, where Jesus is recorded as saying: “And he said to them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven.” The narrator tells us to focus on two words:

A. Lightning

B. Heaven

He then tells us that Strong’s Concordance (words 1299 and 1300) records the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word ASTRAPE (“lightning”) to be BARAQ. This equivalence seems sound enough.

But PPSimmons has more trouble establishing the Hebrew for the second Greek word, OURANOS (“heaven”), which normally would be SHAMAYIM in Hebrew. Yet, PPSimmons wants to convince us that the word really should not be “heaven” (SHAMAYIM) in the sense of where God lives, but more like the “heights,” which he claims would be closer to the Hebrew BAMAH.

To achieve such a Hebrew equivalent, the narrator refers us to Luke 8:5, where we find the phrase “birds of the air,” which is a rendition of the Greek PETEINA TOU OURANOU. The narrator says that this proves that the Greek OURANOS, normally translated as “heaven” does not refer to the heaven of God (birds don’t live there) but to the parts of our own atmosphere where birds fly, and which is also the realm of Satan.

Thus, PPSimmons now has found BARAQ + BAMAH in a hypothetical Hebrew or Aramaic version of Luke 10:18.

WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
There are so many things wrong with this argument that one wonders where to begin. But here are some brief responses:

1. The narrator has the WRONG Hebrew root for the name Barack if we accept President Obama's explanation for his name. President Obama’s explanation of his name may be found in, among other places, the 2004 National Democratic Convention speech: “They would give me an African name, Barack, or ‘blessed,’ believing that in a tolerant America your name is no barrier to success.” See
Obama’s explanation

What Obama meant by “African” is simply an African language version of a well-known Semitic root (BRK) for “blessed” that can be found in Arabic and Hebrew.

Since his name means “blessed,” then this name is related to the Hebrew word BARAK, spelled with Hebrew Kaph, not a Qoph. These are two entirely different consonants and phonemes in Hebrew. The Hebrew BARAK and BARAQ are from two entirely different roots, with ONLY the latter meaning “lightning.”

2. It is most suspect to use Luke 8:5 to argue that “OURANOS” (heaven) in Luke 10:18 should be associated with the Hebrew BAMAH (“high places”). Just because OURANOS in Luke 8:5 can refer to the normal part of the world where birds fly does not mean that the same applies to Luke 10:18.

Other texts describe Satan as living or visiting the Heaven where God lives (e.g., Job 1:6). Revelation 12:9 tells us that Satan is thrown down from Heaven. The latter text, in particular, would be much more thematically related to what is happening in Luke 10:18 than what is described in Luke 8:5 or in Isaiah 14:14, which the narrator admits has to be given a Christian interpretation to even be speaking of Satan.

PPSimmons also overlooks the fact that Jesus may have been in Heaven when he beheld Satan fall from it. Why assume that Jesus is on earth when he beheld this event (which Jesus places in the past)? Even by PPSimmons' Christian theology, one would presume that Jesus was in Heaven at the time of Isaiah 14, which PPSimmons says is speaking of Satan.

3. To achieve the “heights” (BAMAH) reading of Luke 10:18, PPSimmons simply uses an undocumented consensus argument that can be summarized as: “Most scholars think that birds in Luke 8:5 are demonic, and so we should see the area where birds fly as the domain of the demonic.” But, the narrator provides no evidence that most biblical scholars have a demonic interpretation of birds in Luke 8:5, and certainly most academic biblical scholars do not. In any case, consensus arguments are not admissible unless the narrator can explain why the consensus is correct.

4. The phrase “birds of heaven/birds of the air” is a very well-known phrase in Hebrew that is first encountered in Genesis 1:26, where the Hebrew has “OPH HA-SHAMAYIM.” One can find the same phrase in Genesis 1:30, 2:19, 6:7, 7:3, and in 1 Kings 14:11. Thus, the fact that some English translations have “birds of the air” does not mean that the original Hebrew substituted some other word (e.g., BAMAH) for SHAMAYIM. We usually DO FIND the word SHAMAYIM when speaking of "birds of the air."

5. To the best of my knowledge, one NEVER finds OPH HA-BAMAH when speaking of "birds of the air" in the Hebrew Bible.

6. With few exceptions (e.g., Isaiah 14:14), the Hebrew BAMAH refers not to something in mid-air (where birds fly) but to high places that are part of the solid earth. That is to say, hills or altars built on hills rather than in mid-air. These places can be built (e.g., 1 Kings 14:23) and can be destroyed (2 Kings 23:8).

7. Contrary to the YouTube narrator’s statement that a Hebrew Rabbi today would translate the words of Luke 10:18 with BAMAH, the modern Hebrew translation of the New Testament published by the Society for Distributing the Holy Scriptures to the Jews translates “like lightning from the heaven” close to what I have noted: KA-BARAQ MIN-HA-SHAMAYIM. In other words, if you follow a more correct Hebrew translation THERE IS NO BARACK + BAMAH in Luke 10:18.

8. Of course, the YouTube narrator was unable to find Hussein, the president’s middle name, in the text, which at least would be consistent with the president’s full name. PPSimmons cannot easily transform BAMAH into O-BAMAH without further violence to the Hebrew.

9. The narrator does not explain why we should see the words in Luke 10:18 as of any more significance for a link with Barack Obama than any other text we can choose. In overwhelming number, the word root BARAK (“bless”) and its variants, are positive, and so why not say that those instances prophesy a good God-given outcome for Barack Obama?

10. We can follow similar rationales to show that "PPSimmons,” in fact, was prophesied in Acts 8:9. There you will find the a corrupt magician named “Simon,” which can be related to the name “Simmons.”

But note also that the letter of his initials has an equivalent in the Greek letter, PI, and that letter is repeated exactly TWICE in the Greek word (PROUPERCHEN/"he previously [practiced magic]) that follows SIMON. That is a clue (once magically reversed and "properly understood") that, one day, PPSimmons, a false magician of YouTube interpretations, would put forth absurd arguments. Try out your own combination with any good concordance.

In sum, this is another of those very pathetic attempts at pseudo-scholarship. By using similar methods we can prove that president Obama is God’s great “blessing” for the world.

NOTE: My transcriptions of Hebrew and Greek are approximate.

P.S. This week, Keith Olbermann of MSNBC, attempted to refute the YouTube video. Unfortunately, Olbermann reflects a misunderstanding of his own. PPSimmons uses definitions 1299 and 1300 of Strong’s Concordance to establish that BARAQ means “lightning.” Olbermann used Strong’s Concordance word 1301 to say that BARAQ really means “an Israelite.” However, Olbermann did not give the rest of Strong’s definition which, in complete form, is: “The same as 1300; Barak; an Isr.:Barak.” In other words, Strong is still saying that the name of the Israelite named Barak (Judges 4:6-22) is related to the word for “lightning.”

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[First posted 8/7/09]

44 comments:

Dr. Hector Avalos said...

I am going on a hiatus from e-mail and the blogosphere for at least a week, and so do not expect any immediate responses from me to this post.
Thanks!!

Baconsbud said...

I wish more people would spread the word about this. I doubt that the followers of this guy will ever check to make sure what he is saying is correct.

Jason said...

My delusional mother believes this garbage about Obama being the the Anti-Christ as well. Only difference is she believes it from reading the "Left Behind" books.

Jer said...

One observation and one question:

Observation: The argument given in (1) that Barack means "blessed" not "lightening" isn't going to sway anyone who believes in a literal Antichrist figure showing up. (1) depends on taking the President at his word as to the origins of his name, and the standard MO for the Antichrist in popular culture is that he'll be a deceitful bastard. The rest of it seems sound logically, though not likely to convince a True Believer anyway because, well, logic has already flown out the window if you're insisting that Revelation needs to be read as literal prophecy of a coming future.

Question: This all seems based on the idea that it's valid to translate from the Greek to Hebrew to get what Jesus "actually said". But my understanding is that the historical Jesus would have spoken Aramaic not Hebrew. Would this "Google Translate" method of finding words you want to find in the text still hold up if the target language was Aramaic instead of Hebrew?

James F. McGrath said...

Hector, thanks for addressing this!

For those dealing with people impervious to rational explanations, I have an alternative "beat 'em at their own game" approach you can try, highlighting all the positive things the Bible says about baraq (lightning). :-)

Coda19 said...

I knew the narrator must have been a magician of prophesy, I just didn't know which one. Thanks for clearing that one up Dr. A!

I am always amazed that people can fall for the old "baffle them with BS" scheme.

edson said...

, An appalling ignorance of Hebrew is being used to perpetrate an absurd theory.

I cant believe Dr. Avalos can waste his time, go all around the websites, read some stupid conspiracy theories that 9/11 was an inside job, that Apollo moon landing was bogus and that HIV was created by man but not respond to these except on Obama being an antichrist. Of course it is an interesting topic for him and a fertile ground to write book or an online article attacking Christianity being one of the esteemed leaders in the New Thought movement (or whatever label do they choose to use). But what I find more odd is this kinda strange appeal to Hebrew language in debunking an "interesting" topic. So much for free-thinking.

Rob said...

There is no "antichrist" in the Bible!! 1 John talks about a SPIRIT of antichrist. The Bibl;e never says one word about any man being the antichrist. Where do Christians come up with this nonsense? Tell them to STUDY their Bibles for crying out loud. What a bunch of pathetically gullible morons.

Daniel @ Burst said...

ppsshhhh!

As if the FACTS matter. :)

Bluemongoose said...

Completely silly. They said this about JFK too. Remember when people were freaking out after he died b/c they thought he would be resurrected from the dead, and that would prove Kennedy was the antichrist.

goprairie said...

Can't someone do something USEFUL with the Bible like find a directive to restore more land to prairie so that we can get rid of those vastly wasteful church lawns that they mow and use pesticides on and that drain rain off too fast? If we could at least twist the Bible to advocate civil rights and environmentalism, them we'd be doing something. Anybody???

gustavolk-swagen said...

@Baconsbud I agree. I had to put it on Twitter and Facebook, along with my blog, just to make sure I cover all my bases. For anyone who is able, I would suggest doing the same (post the link to the video and to this blog post). Debunking bull$hit is incredibly important in a world of minorities that will use willful ignorance to find "truth" in lies.

BoyintheMachine said...

Well, I know my mother believes Obama is the antichrist but she never read any crazy theory to believe that. She came up with the belief all on her own.

We got into an argument because I told her that if the antichrist was real that Bush would be a better candidate, especially since his actions with the SPP to merge the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, put him closer to fullfilling the "one world government" prophecy. (And yes, let's face it. People who are skeptical of the SPP are just plain ignorant, especially on the history of the European Union. The EU formed under similar conditions.)

feeno said...

W'sup

I agree with Blue, since I was born in 1964 I've heard that Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, about half of the Popes, Charles Manson, Billy Graham and any other magnetic personality who comes along is the Anti-Christ. When I was in High School Ted Nugent, Kiss, AC/DC were all fighting for that "honor".

Nobody really pays any attention to that sh#t. BTW God is coming back on Oct 15 2009 and Hannah Montana is the Anti- Christ.

Peace be with you all, feeno

Baconsbud said...

feeno I have to disagree with you on this. the people that do take these types of messages as the truth, are the ones that will go to a town hall meeting. They won't go to debate something but to disrupt it, not allowing those that are really interested in answers to real questions speak. They are the ones that are the base for the republican party. They are the ones that are easily influenced into committing acts which can cause harm to others or property.

Ross said...

This endless speculation about who or what the antichrist is or isn't, and the links with murky conspiracy theories doesn't do favours for anyone and can be a distraction.

Some of you would be aware that there is a diversity of thought in the area of eschatology. While they may differ on how this will unfold and when, many, but not all Christians believe that one day God will bring the world as we know it to an end. For Christians, in expectation and anticipation of this fact, the key thing is to make sure that you're right with God.

Since this is an atheist blog, most of you have decided that God doesn't exist, and therefore none of this concerns you. But what if you're wrong?

Owlmirror said...

«"Since this is an atheist blog, most of you have decided that God doesn't exist, and therefore none of this concerns you. But what if you're wrong?»

What if you are wrong about Mormonism, or Islam, or any of the other many religions that you yourself reject out of hand?

Anthony said...

Ross: Since this is an atheist blog, most of you have decided that God doesn't exist, and therefore none of this concerns you. But what if you're wrong?

Well actually most of us are atheists because we have found no evidence that god(s) exist. I would venture to say that most Christians just assume that god does exist and usually look for reasons to verify that assumption after the fact.

Like Owl said, what if you are wrong. Some of us where dedicated believers for many years. I went from dispensationalism in my youth to a convinced amillennialism favoring a moderate preterism. Now, looking at things from the skeptical side I have come to see that the NT actually seems to teach a form of chiliasm, or premillennialism.

feeno said...

Hello Anthony, Hows Homeslice?

You said "Well actually most of us are Atheists because we have found no evidence that god(s)exist. I would venture to say that most Christians just assume that god does exist and usually look for reasons to verify that assumption after the fact."

I can't speak for all Christians, but I'd say that is a fair assumption? But you need to ask yourself one question, Why do, not only Christians but most people in general believe in god(s)? May I tell you why? God has implanted that knowledge inside of us. He has set eternity in the hearts of men. God has made it evident within them. (I have scripture if required). Even you at one time believed in God. We can argue why you changed? You'll say something like "I'm smart now and am no longer brainwashed?" or "Evolution helped me see the light." And I'll say something like "bullshit" or "you just think your smarter than God" and around and around we
go.

I'm one of those people who feel that Atheists have fair and challenging arguments. And if you want to be one, there is plenty of evidence to support your claim. But if you decide to become a believer again you'll find plenty of evidence to support that belief
as well.

The reason I choose to "verify that assumption after the fact" you so elegantly phrased is because my mind is constantly aware of God's presense. I don't buy into the argument that I have been indoctrinated, when you were a Christian, I was running around trying to get laid or high, I tried like hell to not be a "Christian?" But that something that God implanted in me was to strong to overcome, I gave into that feeling and have been grateful ever since.

Also you said "What if you are wrong?" Well then I'll be in the same boat you are in.

Your a good guy, I hope that wasn't to "preachy"?

--------------------------------

YO Bacon

When I go to your site, your comments thingy ain't showing up and I can't see the comments?

Peace be with you all, feeno

Ross said...

Well said, Feeno.

Owlmirror, If I'm wrong, the most I have to lose is looking foolish, and I'm willing to pay that price. On the other hand, if you're wrong, the consequences are far more serious.

Owlmirror said...

«"Owlmirror, If I'm wrong, the most I have to lose is looking foolish, and I'm willing to pay that price.

What makes you think that you will merely look foolish, rather than be condemned to eternal torture by an angry God that you didn't worship? Or condemned to eternal torture by an angry God who finds your theological conception of him insultingly blasphemous?

«"On the other hand, if you're wrong, the consequences are far more serious.

Ah, but it is not necessary just for me to be wrong, but for you to be 100% right.

Otherwise, the most I have to lose is merely "looking foolish", after all -- according to you, anyway.

Anthony said...

Feeno: But you need to ask yourself one question, Why do, not only Christians but most people in general believe in god(s)? May I tell you why? God has implanted that knowledge inside of us. He has set eternity in the hearts of men. God has made it evident within them.

Actually Feeno at one time I would have agreed with you. But, since it cannot be proven that everyone has this innate knowledge (non-theistic Buddhism for example) I am convinced that natural explanations make more sense. For example, it could be argued that people derive there beliefs and even their intuitions from their culture, we could call this cultural or societal evolution. Or there could be a basis in natural selection due to biological evolution.

Even you at one time believed in God. We can argue why you changed? You'll say something like "I'm smart now and am no longer brainwashed?" or "Evolution helped me see the light." And I'll say something like "bullshit" or "you just think your smarter than God" and around and around we go.

There is no need to argue why I changed, it was the shear amount of evidence that was overwhelming. Keep in mind, I was not looking to reject Christianity, I was however interested in a Christianity that could deal with the critics and skeptics which is what led me to read some of the books that I got into (also keeping in mind that these books were written by conservative evangelical Christian scholars).

The reason I choose to "verify that assumption after the fact" you so elegantly phrased is because my mind is constantly aware of God's presense. I don't buy into the argument that I have been indoctrinated, when you were a Christian, I was running around trying to get laid or high, I tried like hell to not be a "Christian?" But that something that God implanted in me was to strong to overcome, I gave into that feeling and have been grateful ever since.

Well Feeno, one's culture does have an impact on one's religious (or lack of) views. It may not be the case that you were "indoctrinate" into the Christian faith, but you cannot get away from it because it is so entrenched in our society. There are churches on nearly every corner, and knowing Ohio and Kentucky the way you and I do you know this to be fact.

Telling me about your personal experiences does not prove anything to me. There are any number of physio-pyschological reasons for what people "experience." This is what we have been arguing with Dennis Collis about. Everyone has experiences that they are convinced are true, whether a person thinks they have directly encountered god, had an out of body experience, or abducted by aliens, these all seem real to them.

Your a good guy, I hope that wasn't to "preachy"?

Not at all, I like seeing you trying to engage arguments, keep it up.

feeno said...

Anthony

Nice rebuttal, I'll stay around and keep trying. Thanks for at least understanding.

Dueces, feeno

Anonymous said...

Just mentioning Olbermann at all tends to discredit one, but at least you pointed out that he has his own misunderstanding (which happens 90% of the time with Keith).

I'm not a religious person at all, but I think you actually SUPPORTED the assertion more than debunking it. Obviously Obama's proclaimed name origins would have no relevance to this argument. That's just silly. So, given your confirmations of the accepted "lighting" and "high place", your argument totally supports the premise.

Thanks though, I love to read honest commentary in deciding the weight of an assertion. Well done.

Anonymous said...

Baconsbud, actually the whole reason I'm here is to 'check the words' (here and lots of other sources), but this guy actually supports the claim in my opinion.

Anyway, your argument is ridiculous. Most gang-bangers I think is fair to say are not Republican's. not sure where you get the stretch 'more likely to harm property'?. Pretty ridiculous. There is nothing more American than standing up for what's bothering you at a town hall, especially with policies that are getting exponentially burdensome to the working class. Remember "For the people, by the people..."? ...ever expanding Government, ever costlier, providing less and less efficient services. It's a simple formula for upsetting those who are actually paying attention. And as a true conservative (totally non-religious at that)I am just as against the Republicans.

Anonymous said...

Good points. Obama is still an elitist who does not represent me, African Americans, or any other true American. Oh yea, if 50 million Americans need health care it’s because 25 million need to go back to Mexico. Then, the other 25 million real citizens will get better paying jobs with benefits. See how this work?

Anonymous said...

President Barack Hussein Obama (second)= 1998 OR 666+666+666
(a=6, b=12, c=18, etc.)

BARACK = 36 (a=1,b=2,c=3, etc.)
666 is the 36th triangular number
(36x(36+1))/2 = 666.

Greek (alpha=6, beta=12, etc.)
HUSSEIN = 666, BARACK OBAMA= 6+66+666

Anonymous said...

The first occurance of the NAME BARAK in the Bible is in Judges 4:6 and is the Son of Abinoam. Interestingly, if you'll notice the word ABINOAM. In the center is the word IN. Remove the IN in Abinoam and you are left with (reading backwards from the O) O,B,A,M,A. OBAMA is in ABINOAM, the father of BARAK. Judges 4:6 is the 6,606 verse of the Bible.

RD Tripp said...

Welcome to the Tower of Babel, ladies and gentlemen. Hope you are enjoying all these diatribes about the passage at Luke 10:18. It stands to reason that anything that portends something sinister for Barack Obama will bring liberals out of the woodwork to defend him. I'm not going to take a position up or down (though privately I have already decided), but as a Christian, the bottom line is that I know there IS an anti-Christ and such information doesn't bid well for Obama. The problem with detractors is that when Christ does show up (and soon), NONE of them will believe it and may even be stupid enough to try and crucify Him again (and that would be comical to watch.) Bottom line: The Bible is over two centuries old and Strong's Hebrew Dictionary is 129 years old. Both books are readily available. It is beyond reasonable (notice that I said "reasonable") denial (although insistent or unreasonable denial will continue unabated): BARAQ means "lightning cast forth," and BAMAH means "heights," "high places," or "heavens." The conjunction is the Vau or Waw, letter O or U, so "baraq o bamah" literally means "lightning cast from heaven."

And THAT is the metaphor used by Christ when referring to Satan. Like it, don't like it. Argue semantics, Greek vs. Aramaic issues, or just tear up Christians as a bunch of Obama-hating wackos. Say what you will, because what you are going to believe is whatever you WANT to believe, no matter WHAT you see or read.

That's what the books say, and the phonetic pronounciation of Jesus' metaphor to Satan JUST HAPPENS TO BE IDENTICAL to the English pronunciation of the name of the President.

Imagine that. You can continue now putting it down, making fun of it, ridiculing it, debunking it to your heart's desire. I know what I read in the Bible and Strong's with my own eyes. You can be as argumentative as you desire.

But that's what it says -- and your rants to the contrary change not one thing. Live with it. I will simply stand back now and watch the fireworks. America is in for a very, very rough ride at the hands of this charlatan pretending to be an American President.

And when the rest of you figure it out, it will be too damn late. Pardon me if I shed no tears for you when you finally recoil in shock and horror. Just don't crowd each other in the concentration camps, and leave a little room for the women and kids, will you?

I will be somewhere else. I may be here, I may be there, but I will be watching from wherever I am when Obama gets his butt kicked. And trust me -- his butt will be kicked hard. Every eye will see it happen, though not all will be as surprised as some of the "scholars" here.

No better proof I have ever seen that too much education or agenda driven ideology leads to ignorance.

Paris said...

Ladies and Gentleman,

Manishma? (How are you doing in Hebrew)

You tube is correct. Israel has a missile called the Barak which means lightning. Bahma does mean height in Hebrew. How do I know? I live in Israel.

Shalom to everyone.

Madd Maxx said...

This is only 2 mens opinion. I was searching for debunking of the Simmons video. This web sight did not do it. I don't think he is the anti-christ, but he is anti-USA. We are no longer land of the free. Oboma represents what our fore Fathers fought against. history is just repeating itself again. I do see him as a person to watch closely to see how he handles Israel. PPSimmons made a much better case than than Avalos. Universal healthcare was just crammed down our throats giving government enormous power. Watch world events closely. It is written what will happen.

Baconsbud said...

Madd Maxx what is your evidence that The President is anti-USA? I see nothing that he is doing that is any worse then most politicians and even better then others. If you are just basing your view on what others have said without checking the truth of what they have said, then you are part of the problem with this country. If you have checked, then provide this evidence.

Madd Maxx said...

@ Baconsbud. This health care bill is full of "Pork" (another word for bribe) Obama specifically said on a meet the press interview Dec 6th and I quote "You know, the days of just pork coming out of Congress as a strategy, those days are over."..This bill is not supported by the majority and is going to raise costs and cause job losses. Small businesses are going to be hit quite hard. Even larger businesses may have to lay off americans. The plan itself is going to cost the taxpayers a fortune, but it is also going to cost everyone who has insurance another fortune to keep their coverage. Once people start screaming about the rate increases, you’ll see the “public option” pop out again as the savior, which is, of course, all part of the long-term plan.
Open up your wallet and keep it open. (well at least the ones that work) Are the Illegals going to get health care? Wow, anti america.
In any case, be prepared for large premium increases over the next 4-5 years.

That is just the beginning of the anti USA president and his administration we are stuck with for another 8 months. Peloski strong armed and bribed for votes for this HC bill.

Government of the people, by the people, for the people, not this administration.

Baconsbud said...

The things you have said aren't to convincing I must say. I have seen that all your points have been shown to be wrong and how is this any different then most politics in America. Are you going to apply these same standard you have for this administration, for all those before that have lead to the financial crisis. I have to say that more has been lost because of the action of all the other administrations then will ever be lost by the healthcare bill. You are wearing blinders and only saying what those that are anti-Constitution want you to say.

busterggi said...

Of course he isn't Baconsbud, the previous POTUS was a fellow Christian &n therefore appointed by Jesus.

It may be crazy but I've heard that from numerous believers.

Gandolf said...

Ross said..."Well said, Feeno.

Owlmirror, If I'm wrong, the most I have to lose is looking foolish, and I'm willing to pay that price. On the other hand, if you're wrong, the consequences are far more serious."

................

Yeah i know....maybe Jim Jones said something kind of the same to those around him to soothe the thinking.Or Russian orthadox christians camping out in a cave in the snow with young children,expecting the end of the world or the ressurection or what ever.Said but what have we got to lose??,without bothering to think what if this cave collapese and kills our children! robbing them of THEIR lives in the process.
And destiny church might say some of the same sorts of stuff to their followers too.What have you got to lose if we are wrong?,quick tythe your little hearts out ...or you may miss out

But actually there is lots else at stake,that we all know we actually have.Like life! ,life that was wasted for certain folks through this thinking they really best be thinking about the afterlife and salvation.After all what good is salvation to somebody dead from johnstown type cults, if a afterlife and salvation dont actually even exist?.

How sad!! it is that the faithful suggest,that maybe the only thing at stake here is people looking foolish?....Isnt this making rather light! of certain folks that suffered through stupidity of faiths?

But then, what about faith historically has ever honestly proved it to really always be so very thoughtful and caring?.

Sacrifice? ...Humans lifes offered up to try to please the gods to stop famine or writh of the gods or something??

..................

The faithful way of laying their bets is very much like the type of attitude we expect to see from (real life gamblers)....They dont really care who or how promotion of their gambling habbit might effect anyone else ....Life is all about them, and their, personal salvation

Rosses thoughts state how many faithful folk think ...>"If I'm wrong, the most I have to lose is looking foolish, and I'm willing to pay that price."

Absolutely no care how continued promotion of faith beliefs effect others.No thought that through promotion of faith,some folks suffered.

The chance of grand prize for them, is all that counts.There is nothing else to be even considdered about possibility of anyone losing.

Now of course i know faithful are not nessarily bad people! i still try to like em .Sadly like gamblers! they still can be good people! who just forget!, there are actually others they should maybe really be considdering also.Learn to understand life is just not completely all about them and their hope of a chance at winning the lotto first prize.

Non believers are willing to considder that maybe, that one armed bandit really might be just about getting ready to make that big pay out! ...But we feel its really worth while!!, to not just follow feelings ...We think bets should be placed only on the winning horses! not just willy-nilly,because lives wasted can be costly to somebody

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

PPSimmons is a crackpot plain and simple. This garbage adds up to nothing but radical sensationalism.

I may not agree with some of what Barak has done or plans to do but it's not because he's the devil or anti-Christ...

This guy is a flake!

Thanks Dr. Avalos but what I really want to get back into (without the interruption of last time) is Sargon. However I want to also see the best Christian apologetic in defense of it also.

I think that was one of the best studies but I want to see it laid out in a balanced and fair manner.

Retired At 40 said...

"That is just the beginning of the anti USA president and his administration we are stuck with for another 8 months."

I hate to break this to you MaddMan but it's probably going to be closer to 8 years assuming the world doesn't come to an end first.

Clare said...

This discussion just proves to me -a Canadian- that fundamentalist Christianity and right wing U.S politics are closely intertwined.
I suppose next you will point how bad the universal health care system is in Canada. BTW we have a longer life expectancy than the average US citizen.
The U.S is the only civilised (??) western nation not to have universal health care.
The wealthier US folks do not want to spend a single dime of their money to help subsidize health care for the poor and less fortunate. How Christian is that? Remember the Good Samaritan?

Greg said...

Isn't good that the Anti-Christ has arrived, strictly from a not-too-biblical-and-off-your-meds perspective?

In pop theology, doesn't that mean we're not too far off from the rapture? I'd imagine the more insane Christians would be fully behind a full eight-year Obama presidency.

Maybe that could be an angle Obama's reelection campaign can play up: "Why, yes... I AM the Anti-Christ, and if you want begin Christ's reign, you know which box to tick this November."

KCF Mike said...

You have to admit that the YouTube vid makes a compelling argument to what can be considered a logical phonetic extrapolation. The nation of Isreal had a hard time putting the old testiment in context until Jesus had come and gone. Had the Author spelled out Obama's full legal name, than I guess he wouldn't have been elected, would he? (more likely stoned!).

As we continue down the Obama road, I’m thinking it may become all too clear as to his identity, especially given today’s financial overhaul which will likely give the Obama administration 2/3 (or more) control over the US economy. Shoot! At this rate we'll be lucky to have an uncorrupt, free election in 2012. The whole 3rd world rooting for Obama and the fall of the USA (though for differing reasons), that should tell you something.

truthseeker said...

The name BARAK has been used in Islam for centuries. The prophet Mohammed had a horse named Al Barak, you can google it. Muslims around the world have been waiting for the "Son from the West" to arrive, approximately 1200 years. This son is going to usher in the Anti-christ(Mahdi) into the new world order. Obama has been busy setting up this new world order with one banking system, one world government, etc. All the muslims knew the son was here when Obama put his symbol, the O with three red lines coming off of it, on his plane. He is much into symbols. He also hates Isreal, and showed the world this when he has a photo of him talking to Isreal's prime minister on the phone, in the oval office with his feet up on the desk. Every good muslim knows one does not show his shoe unless he thinks the other person(Isreal) is lower than dirt. All muslims in the world knows Obama's stand with Isreal.

Yea, this guy was a little off, saying he is the anti-christ, but isn't anyone who does not believe in Christ, an anti-christ. Obama is ushering in the setting for the new world order and the Anti-Christ to arrive.

Lets doe some research on Islam, and the Koran, before we start critisizing the Christians who just want people to wake up and not believe Obama's lies. Please open your eyes, and see the light.

KathrynK said...

For those Athiests who ignorantly assume that 'there is no proof'...most probably haven't looked very far.
I'm not hear to debate the existence of a God through philosophical argument...heck Einstein was a firm believer...I'm sure he could give any of ya'll a run for your money.
But I am going to prove to you that JESUS is still alive today. I suppose you'll have to take me at my word... thats up to you.

I too, did not believe once upon a time...but after having doing some searching I have found PROOF!
I have seen dozens of healing miracles with my own two eyes. In fact from what I am told, my whole life is a miracle. My mother was told it was impossible for her to have children. She tried for ten years and constantly failed, until one day a Christian prayed for her...and BAM she was pregnant 2 weeks later with twins... at 40 yrs of age. I have also seen the power of God manifest through prayer with my own two eyes. I was apart of a team that prayed a woman who was deaf from birth. After about 4 short prayers, she was completely healed and was able to HEAR for the first time...I have seen a man who could not walk WALK, I have seen cataracs in people's eyes CLEAR up right before my eyes. The list goes on and on.... Last week a lady at our church who had a serious skin cancer was prayed for, and by the next sunday it was completely gone...doctors are in shock.. A man was declared dead last month in a hospital in my town (melbourne, Australia) and a Christian doctor who was in the morgue prayed for him and he came back to life. My mother has prayed for women in Africa with AIDS and women who are barren, and has seen many healings...with doctors reports confirming...that's right, people who were HIV + are now completely free of the virus. A close friend of mine had terminal cancer. The doctors were unable to do anything. She was given 8 months to live. But after loads of prayer the cancer literally dissapeared!!
I can keep going for you if you would like...and give you their numbers and emails to verify...even doctors reports....

THERE IS A GOD AND HE LOVES YOU EVEN IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN HIM!!!

why else would these healings happen??

Peace...

Anonymous said...

you have not debunked anything, instead you have proven it.