Jesus, The Dodo Bird and The Reality of Extinction
Lets say all the facts as recorded in the Gospels were totally true.
Let say that all the ancient testimonials of the ancient pagan authors were correct and true as recorded about Jesus and what they recorded totally supported the Gospels.
Lets say we had a Jesus who was 100% New Testament reality who lived and functioned in the past reality.
Lets say we had the original autograph texts of the Gospels themselves, no question about it.
Lets say there was no doubt that Jesus did miracles. He, without a doubt, did raise the dead, heal the sick and cast out demons.
Let say there is totally no way anyone today could deny the reality of miracles a wonderworking Jesus did in the Gospels as recorded by both Christian and pagan authors.
Lets say that we possess Gospel texts which are totally in 100% agreement with each other without any mixture of error or contradiction and that all the events in the life of Jesus are such hard facts that no one in his right mind would even think of denying them.
Now lets asked: Just what happened to all the miracles (the works the Gospels calls the “Signs and Wonders”)? Just why did everything come to a sudden stop? Just why don’t we have a continuation of wonder workers or miracle working disciples known as Christians today rising the dead, healing the sick and working “Signs and Wonders” as given by the master Jesus himself to all who believe in the King of Heaven / God and as proof of the Gospel reality? In short, just why are not there Gospels miracles still happening today performed by ALL Christians?
Fact is, even if we removed all the debate about the truthful historicity of the New Testament, we still fail to have Christians living and working “Signs and Wonders” among us today.
Fact is, the Dodo bird did exist. The Dodo bird did feed hungry sailors. The Dodo bird did factually live in history and no one could argue otherwise.
But the Dodo bird is no more. Gone is its wonderful nourishing meat. Gone is this huge flightless bird that fascinated all who saw it. Far all the historical truthfulness of a past real live Dodo bird, it can now only live on in human imagination. That’s the price of extinction.
So to even if one were to accepts all the above about Jesus in the New Testament as being totally true, he would remain an extinct creature of the past just like our Dodo bird. A factual and wonder working reality of the past, but a totally extinct wonderworker who is now gone forever.
Let say that all the ancient testimonials of the ancient pagan authors were correct and true as recorded about Jesus and what they recorded totally supported the Gospels.
Lets say we had a Jesus who was 100% New Testament reality who lived and functioned in the past reality.
Lets say we had the original autograph texts of the Gospels themselves, no question about it.
Lets say there was no doubt that Jesus did miracles. He, without a doubt, did raise the dead, heal the sick and cast out demons.
Let say there is totally no way anyone today could deny the reality of miracles a wonderworking Jesus did in the Gospels as recorded by both Christian and pagan authors.
Lets say that we possess Gospel texts which are totally in 100% agreement with each other without any mixture of error or contradiction and that all the events in the life of Jesus are such hard facts that no one in his right mind would even think of denying them.
Now lets asked: Just what happened to all the miracles (the works the Gospels calls the “Signs and Wonders”)? Just why did everything come to a sudden stop? Just why don’t we have a continuation of wonder workers or miracle working disciples known as Christians today rising the dead, healing the sick and working “Signs and Wonders” as given by the master Jesus himself to all who believe in the King of Heaven / God and as proof of the Gospel reality? In short, just why are not there Gospels miracles still happening today performed by ALL Christians?
Fact is, even if we removed all the debate about the truthful historicity of the New Testament, we still fail to have Christians living and working “Signs and Wonders” among us today.
Fact is, the Dodo bird did exist. The Dodo bird did feed hungry sailors. The Dodo bird did factually live in history and no one could argue otherwise.
But the Dodo bird is no more. Gone is its wonderful nourishing meat. Gone is this huge flightless bird that fascinated all who saw it. Far all the historical truthfulness of a past real live Dodo bird, it can now only live on in human imagination. That’s the price of extinction.
So to even if one were to accepts all the above about Jesus in the New Testament as being totally true, he would remain an extinct creature of the past just like our Dodo bird. A factual and wonder working reality of the past, but a totally extinct wonderworker who is now gone forever.
60 comments:
Lets say all the facts as recorded in the Gospels were totally true.
Which includes the resurrection and ascension to the the Father.
So to even if one were to accepts [sic] all the above about Jesus in the New Testament as being totally true, he would remain an extinct creature of the past ...a totally extinct wonderworker who is now gone forever.
Contradiction.
Hi Harry,
fortunately you don't have to grant any of it as being true since there is no rational basis to put a high level of confidence in most of it, and whatever is true will stand on its own through external verification.
the things that can be cross-checked with two or more external sources are plausible, but anything else is just pure speculation.
so grant 'em that pilate existed, grant 'em that david existed, but the jury is still out on jesus as a person, and the miracles he supposedly did should be held to the same criteria as the miracles of pythagorus, or any of the other wonder kids running around in those centuries.
and david, you are working with a huge disadvantage because there is no rational basis to believe that the information you got that from is reliable.
Assuming the accuracy of the components of the Jesus story, we still don't know if Jesus had supernatural powers, continues to exist as a conscious entity somewhere and has the ability to give people who worship him an immortal existence in a supernatural "heaven," whatever that means. I can see how unsophisticated people back then might have drawn the wrong inferences from some unusual events around Jesus they happened to witness, just as cargo cultists in the 20th Century misinterpreted how Westerners produced the material goods they mysteriously brought to their islands.
David: “Which includes the resurrection and ascension to the the Father.”
David, since you can do NONE of the claims and promises the extinct Jesus promised either could do are all Christians could do as proof that the Kingdom of Heaven had come, all Christian is an extinct Jesus society.
To say Jesus ascended to some heaven where he lives on does NOT answer why you don’t have the Gospel powers…why you can do NO miracles as Jesus promised you.
You see, this is the price of extinction.
Christianity has is the hopes and dream of a past and lost time; in short they are the “Extinct Jesus Society“.
So, I would not argue that Jesus is in some heaven, but he is there with the Dodo bird right next to him!
It is by faith that you, David, and the rest of the present world can taste the meat of the long extinct Dodo bird, but ONLY if you believe / pretend.
Like person with a gun, Christians run around talking about all the might and powerful things it could do IF ONLY they had some bullets or proofs that it really worked.
David, Jesus will reward you and Jesus will punish me the same time the long extinct Dodo bird will peck my eyes out. That’s reality!
No David the contradiction is on you and your “Post-Jesus Christianity“. Since Christianity has none of the proofs of “Signs and Wonders” Jesus is said to have given to all his followers in the Gospel to be fulfilled with all believers at Pentecost (Acts 2), you have NOTHING to point to as a present reality.
I must agree with the faith healers like Benny Hinn and Ernest Angley (a faith healer for well over 40 years) that while your type of Christianity denies the promises of Jesus as New Testament proof of the Kingdom of God, at least these evangelist take the New Testament at face value even though they live with fakery!
Lee,
Great point and I totally agree.
I just wanted to say that even IF we concede the fact that the past is true, Christainity still has a MAJOR problem today as proof of being true…”Signs and Wonder”!
Harry,
You have not defended the apparent contradiction you presented, nor have you presented any evidence from the Bible that believers should be doing miracles.
Case closed.
Acts 2:18b-19
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
Acts 2:43
43And awe [fear] came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles
David, are there not real live apostles here today? I just saw one on PTL (The Trinity Network) the other night!
Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states these gift have ended.
I light of the claims you make I have a verse for you: “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” 2 Timothy 2:12
Hey Harry,
Awesome rhetoric.
Here is the kicker.
Why don't we see miracles today?
We do?
Regards Rev Phil.
Author of the Blog
Christianity Versus Atheism
http://christianityversusatheism.blogspot.com/
lee randolph:
and david, you are working with a huge disadvantage because there is no rational basis to believe that the information you got that from is reliable.
Are you saying Harry is unreliable?
"Lets say all the facts as recorded in the Gospels were totally true."
Great job, Harry! This is a huge step forward for atheists. Well done.
Jason,
It's a step forward to ignore the contradictions, tall-tales, and unsupported assumptions made by ancient mystics and just assume it's right?
If I have to assume an entire body of ancient writing is 100% factual in order for Christianity to make sense, then I don't think you understand how shaky Christianity's foundation is.
Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states these gift have ended.
No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest
I light of the claims you make I have a verse for you: “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” 2 Timothy 2:12
1. I think you meant 2 Tim 3:5, or else you have a really weird Bible.
2. How in the world is that related to the claims I make?
David “Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states these gift have ended.”
RE: Did Jesus go to the Father? “"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.” John 14: 12.
Also, in light of John 3:16 “…but have eternal life.” means here and now and is re-enforced by John 8: 51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
To claim that both this verses are referring to some eternal live in heaven CAN NOT be exegetically proven!!
David: “No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest.”
RE: Let look at Rev. Phillip Brown’s comment here: “Hey Harry, Awesome rhetoric. Here is the kicker. Why don't we see miracles today? We do? Regards Rev Phil. Author of the Blog Christianity Versus Atheism http://christianityversusatheism.blogspot.com/”
However, Rev. Brown, please bring your apostles working "signs and wonders" to your local hospital and, not only heal the sick, but you’ll prove Biblical truth at the same time winning millions of lost souls.
Plus, Rev. Brown, do you or do you not think Benny Hinn has God’s healing powers working signs and wonders in his services?
And David, “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” 2 Timothy… How in the world is that related to the claims I make?”
By this section of 2 Timothy, you are a latter deceiver!
Jason, Jesus and the Dodo bird have one thing in common: death!
Hey Harry,
You said,
However, Rev. Brown, please bring your apostles working "signs and wonders" to your local hospital and, not only heal the sick, but you’ll prove Biblical truth at the same time winning millions of lost souls.
Plus, Rev. Brown, do you or do you not think Benny Hinn has God’s healing powers working signs and wonders in his services?
Probs Harry, I'm not God. He decides what needs to be done for His Glory. Secondly proving the bible assumes that God's wants to prove the bible? I'm not so sure that is what God is trying to accomplish through the scriptures.
Benny Hinn is difficult. I don't like his practice of Christianity but I have neither seen him personally or been to one of his services so my only exposure to him has been through the media, something that I am rarely willing to hang my hat on.
Regards, Rev. Phil.
Author of the Blog
Christianity Versus Atheism http://christianityversusatheism.blogspot.com/”
Let's say this is the best blog I have every read!
Harry,
No offense my friend, but you aren't making any sense right now. If you care to take a few minutes to collect your thoughts and present some form of a coherent argument as to why there is Biblical warrant today for "signs and wonders" among believers, I it would make this easier for both of us.
To claim that both this verses are referring to some eternal live in heaven CAN NOT be exegetically proven!!
I have no idea how this relates to our discussion.
As to John 14:12 - contextually it is situated between Jesus speaking of those who "believe on account of the works" (11) and the promise of the Holy Spirit (16-31) to come. Obviously a reference to the Pentecost is it not? The "greater works than these" (μειζονα τουτων)is comparative adjective neuter plural from μεγας with ablative case τουτων. Not necessarily greater miracles and not greater spiritual works in quality, but greater in quantity. Cf. Peter at Pentecost and Paul's mission tours. "Because I go" (οτ εγω πορευορνα). Reason for this expansion made possible by the Holy Spirit as Paraclete (see Robertson's Word Pictures).
Philip,
I really don't care if you have to assume or not. I'm just happy to see an atheist tossing around the idea the Gospels are 100% fact.
Harry,
This article and the other you set forth are about the same. You seem to wonder why there are no signs and wonders today. PLEASE. how sheltered of an existence do you live?
Fist of all, miracles do exist and they exist as FORMER athiest C.S.Lewis stated:
"“It is therefore inaccurate to define a miracle as something that breaks the laws of nature. It doesn’t...if God creates a miraculous spermatozoon in the body of a virgin, it does not proceed to break any laws. The laws at once take over. Nature is ready. Pregnancy follows, according to all normal laws, and nine months later a child is born….The moment it enters her realm it will obey all the laws"(condensed) C.S. Lewis “Miracles” 1960 p.59
the reason I mentioned that is because you follow the athiest playbook in your belief that miracles cannot violate natural laws. Miracles can superceede natural laws however but you can't discern that because you would would have to gravitate toward an understanding of an open continuum.
You also said this in response to Rev. Brown:
"However, Rev. Brown, please bring your apostles working "signs and wonders" to your local hospital and, not only heal the sick, but you’ll prove Biblical truth at the same time winning millions of lost souls"
I have done that Harry. I have first hand experience of seeing some who the doctors had medically gave up on before believers gathered, prayed and God raised them up and or reversed their physical illness. In fact Harry, I have some people in my church that were medically diagnosed with cancer and in at least 1 case cancerous tumors. Those tumors no longer exist and cancer is either inremission or cannot be found.
Doctors don't say miracles. that however does not mean that they don't exist Harry.
For you the problem is that these sort of things go on everyday all around the world and you and other anti-supernaturalists turn away as if you don't see it...ie; make believe it's not real, and call your pretense science...The facts are not in line with your fantasies however....
One more thing, I do speak in tongues regularly according to Acts 2:4. Modern science has sought to understand this "miracle" Here's and article that you may respect regarding this Tongues On The Brain...
You can purchase the research paper at Science Direct.
How's that for science?
By the way, your fellow friends at Ex Christian were even aware of this regarding tongues, although they don't have the GUTS to admit that they are wrong either.
Peace.
Harvey, I would wager that you could not heal a person with a severed spinal cord nor someone with total blindness (say with one or both eyes removed or damaged).
My daughter when into kidney failure at 14 and was own dialysis until I gave her one of my kidneys in a transplant ten years ago.
All the churches prayed and formed prayer chains, but it took an atheist to save her life (she was going down fast on dialysis).
Both, if you can even heal one person, then it’s not up to me to judge you. Just keep it up.
Finally, the emotion of crying is also expressing intense feeling that can not be expressed in normal language and is therefore express in a totally new language. The same with laughter and the moaning or grunts people do when they are hurt. It does not have to be religious for this to happen, plus tongues are known to happen in other religions too.
Shalom,
Harry
Harry ~ "Harvey, I would wager that you could not heal a person with a severed spinal cord nor someone with total blindness (say with one or both eyes removed or damaged)."
That's the problem with your thinking Harry, I cannot heal anyone...ONLY God can and that's the part that escapes you. So far as taking what seems to be an impossible situation and healing it, there have been credible testimonies gathered over the years for such phenomea INCLUDING the regrowth and extension of limbs development of organs etc. in response to believing prayer.
So the fact that I cannot do this in no way impunes or limits God's ability to do so even at my or someone else's hand. He can, in response to believing prayer. In fact he can do it without prayer at all but the door is closed to intervention of others when he is directly asked and directly moves in response.
So far as your daughter is concerned, once again you fail to understand that God ALLOWED you to be alive with an undamaged kidney and not suffering from renal failure yourself just so that you COULD donate a healthy kidney to your child. Do you know how many children don't even know their parents or don't receive a kidney match until it's beyond the point of no return?
Once again you expect that a godly intervention look and feel the way YOU specify that it should BEFORE you give God credit. By virtue of that you face a conundrum, in that you take the seat of God and make yourself a God monitoring how miracles are administrated...
That's the problem. God does not have to conform to your ideals of bringing deliverance to mankind in order for that deliverance to come from him.
As I said, you were preserved for the express purpose of answering the praryers that were prayed by godly people...that's the ONLY reason...well in addition to having this conversation so that you could realize your human frailty and inability to prepare yourself to rescue your own seed.
So Harry, you'll have to do much better than that because all you're basically saying is that "I want my miracles the way I want 'em." and that's plain ole silly.
Thanks.
harvy,
So far as taking what seems to be an impossible situation and healing it, there have been credible testimonies gathered over the years for such phenomea INCLUDING the regrowth and extension of limbs development of organs etc. in response to believing prayer.
Substantiate your claim, with evidence or leave.
So far as your daughter is concerned, once again you fail to understand that God ALLOWED you to be alive with an undamaged kidney and not suffering from renal failure yourself just so that you COULD donate a healthy kidney to your child.
...and besides pulling this imaginative, rationalization out of your ass; please tell us, exactly, how you are privy to this particular god information and explain to us why it is more likely god had anything to do with it, as opposed, to Harry's daughter being lucky enough to be able to get a healthy kidney from him?
Hmmmmmmmm, what if the kidney recipient wasn't lucky enough to get an undamaged kidney from a relative or anyone for that matter and the patient suffered and died as a result?
Ohhhhhhhh, yeah, god allowed that as well -- right Harv.
If something good happens to someone, it's god's will. If something bad happens, well, that's god's will too.
No matter what, you always think you win the argument, in your little fantasy world, that you've created, which erroneously, bolsters your bogus sense of superiority and the delusional sense of authority.
Once again you expect that a godly intervention look and feel the way YOU specify that it...blah, blah, blah.
Oh, but you know how godly intervention, really, looks like -- do tell -- how, exactly, do you know how this godly intervention goes down. Why are you privy to this information?
That's the problem. God does not have to conform to your ideals of bringing deliverance to mankind in order for that deliverance to come from him.
...but you know god's ideals don't you? How, exactly, do you know this? Substantiate your ridiculous, claims.
I, too, could make absurd, unsubstantiated, claims, all day long, just like you:
My car is making funny sounds and is running rough.
There are invisible gremlins in my car making it run that way.
There have been credible testimonies gathered over the years for such phenomena INCLUDING gremlins sabotaging airplanes in the Royal Air Force.
That's the problem. Gremlins don't have to conform to your ideals on how they will wreck a piece of machinery in order for that piece of machinery to be wrecked.
Substantiate your claims or they are not even worth the minuscule brain power you used to type them.
--S.
Sconnor,
I've believe atheism is a stupid proposition, however I have met and read some smart athiests with good moral character.
In your case however you are the most IDIOTIC athiest I've ever read and I don't take ANYTHING you ask or direct toward me seriously...In fact you should stop doing so because to me you're the joke of the athiest realm.
In you, the assertion of Cavin's teachings on TOTAL DEPRAVITY are easily realized. As you said to me you're a "horrible little cretin"-LOL-LOL-LOL!!!!
Further, you're a self described NUT(which is easily affirmed reading your lunatic posts and even site),a SENSATIONALIST, and even worse an EXPLOITER OF YOUR OWN CHILDS DEATH, and I have NO empathy or sympathy for you AT ALL... you burned every humanistic bridge with me long ago...
You have proven to be the genetically preprogrammed piece of primordial slime that you claim to be.
SO GET YOUR FACTS AND SUPPORT FROM YOUR LUNATIC FRIENDS THAT BUY INTO YOUR IDIOTIC RANTS...to me you're the atheistic JOKE of 2008!
Later, CONNOR JR. EXPLOITER!
Sconner- my heartfelt sympathy to you. As the father of two wonderful children, the loss of a child is something I cannot imagine- I would be devastated. All the best to you, and let me know if you're ever in Vienna, or in the SF Bay Area.
Harvey- here we see the true colors of your belief. Someone who disagrees with you is "slime". That's Christian love for you.
Zilch,
That's not my claim...That's the ATHIEST claim.
You (athiests in general)claim to be a genetically preprogrammed, pieces of primordial slime...I only take all of the fancy words that you place around it away and state it as it is...
I don't believe that about you but you believe that about yourself...now prove to me you don't! I'll present a bunch of posts from this blog in evidence against any argument you make to the contrary.
So far as disagreements, I have no problem with a rationally argued disagreement AT ALL...
Later
Harvey: I don't know of any atheists who claim to be slime. Do you? Not that there's anything wrong with slime, in its place, but we human beings, believers and atheists alike, have come a long ways from our origins as primordial slime. Life is a gift; and our human life, with our intelligence and power to change the world, is an amazing and wonderful thing. What are you doing with your power to make the world a better place for our grandchildren?
Zilch ~ U see this is what I'm talking about:
I don't know of any atheists who claim to be slime.
atheists alike, have come a long ways from our origins as primordial slime.
What is THAT? The biggest inconsistency of the year?
I get it, you're not slime now, but you came from slime which occurred through random chance over billions of years...yea right...OK
Then you have the NERVE to go here: Life is a gift;
A GIFT? What the John Hay is That? A gift from where and whom in the Athiest world view? What is that about?
Then you conclude: What are you doing with your power to make the world a better place for our grandchildren?
So you SWIM in waters that you don't want to venture into...you have NO IDEA how I have helped communities, and cities become a better place to live for all men and women and even athiests, and or how I do this EVERYDAY in REAL LIFE...PLEASE, let's not go down that alley...
Anyway, so you're a well developed piece of primordial slime? OK I guess I stand corrected...But you still have those preprogrammed genetic processes to deal with...I gues slime gets better everyday!
Believe me, I'm just having fun with this at this point, i already made my point to Harry who I originally responded to but like all athiests you guys just can't leave it alone...so what they hey...
Peace.
Zilch,
Sconner- my heartfelt sympathy to you. As the father of two wonderful children, the loss of a child is something I cannot imagine- I would be devastated. All the best to you, and let me know if you're ever in Vienna, or in the SF Bay Area.
Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your empathy and understanding, as opposed to the schizophrenic Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde of christendom -- harv burnett -- who left this message at my blog:
S. Connor,
Thank you for sharing that powerful and very emotional life situation with me on DC. I want to make myself available to you personally to talk about this situation at length. I LOVE my children will all my life and I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would feel similar to you. I can’t imagine the pain, it is truly beyond me. BUT the God that I serve is real and is not a cosmic hater.
I don’t mind your statements of anger, all I ask is that you allow me in, not as an adversary to try to blast your mind or manipulate your thoughts but to be a companion along with you. There is no guarantee that the show won’t be on the other foot one day and I would hope that I could find a friend atheist or not, in all of the turmoil. That’s what I offer.
I believe God, but I also know how to minister to and love people. I don’t know what to say I will only offer that there is a fountain full of compassion that fills my life and reason for living. I only wish to extend that fountain to you also. Thank you.
And by the way, prayer does change things. I am a living witness of the fact.
Pastor Harvey Burnett
Wow, what a difference between this message and the most recent, vile, post he left me, up above, at DC -- cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.
Now, he can, only, vomit up venomous, hurtful, disgraceful, hate filled speech, with all the insensitivity of a callous, cold-hearted, depraved, infantile, little man, who maligns and slanders me, by accusing me of exploiting and disrespecting my son's memory.
He shows great christian compassion, doesn't he? (Heavy Sarcasm)
--S.
harvy,
In your case however you are the most IDIOTIC athiest I've ever read ...teachings on TOTAL DEPRAVITY are easily realized...SENSATIONALIST, and even worse an EXPLOITER OF YOUR OWN CHILDS DEATH, and I have NO empathy or sympathy for you AT ALL...have proven to be the genetically preprogrammed piece of primordial slime...ad hominem... ad hominem...ad hominem...
Your evasive and deluded, non-answer, psycho-babble, speaks volumes of your ineptitude and inability to answer my questions.
Please, answer the questions.
--S.
David "No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest"
Why not David ?is that to logical??.Seems if they ever happened they most likely still would.Seems logical doesnt it ?.David your answer is no more than a typical religious cop out.
Same goes for Reverend Phillip Brown when he replies :"Probs Harry, I'm not God. He decides what needs to be done for His Glory. Secondly proving the bible assumes that God's wants to prove the bible? I'm not so sure that is what God is trying to accomplish through the scriptures."
What a total cop out once again .What a let down ! what a flop .I mean surely if all these claims here of miracles held any reality of truth.These miracle people just like jesus would be flat out doing such wonders ,our hospitals would not even need beds.If it held any real truth in these matters people would be converting to Christianity in droves.After all most people only need to see some real reason to believe some honest facts ! , the problem is they see none ! and to make matters worse these fraudsters rub salt in the wounds by carrying on peddling fairy tales.
Say what ??"Secondly proving the bible assumes that God's wants to prove the bible?" Thats some bloody great comfort for many cancer patients etc in hospital looking for some hope isnt it then .Real great promises but no need to carry them out.
Some father ! some caring Supreme Being ! all these people get as salt in the wounds is religious folk telling porkies on blogs and seeming to enjoy it.
As for District Supt. Harvey Burnett im not surprised he talks in tongues.We have experienced him talking in tongues right here on this blog havent we.Shouting like some rabid dog thats frothing at the mouth "you're a "horrible little cretin"-LOL-LOL-LOL!!!!"..."You have proven to be the genetically preprogrammed piece of primordial slime that you claim to be." etc
Im sure somebody somewhere must have been healed from that gracious outburst of godly speaking in tongues from this servant.
If nothing else somebodies cured of Christianity and faith in beliefs anyway.I can honestly say each time i hear the gospel from these religious folks ,any cancerous religious growths infecting my body are disappearing by the minute.Is that a miracle ?.
Harry McCall your logical and alright, even if others just cant handle those that look towards logic quite often.
Gandolf,
Its the equivalent of me writing a blog article about why unicorns exist, and then when you challenge me I respond, "Show me one shred of scientific evidence that unicorns don't exist."
You see, since I'm the one writing an article about why unicorns exist then I'm the one who should bolster the evidence.
If you are concerned about logic, then you should know that this borderlines on the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam.
Gandolf, Gumbo or whatever,
Stay out of grown folks convo's until you have the FACTS...you have no idea of even the basis for my commentary.
I REFUSE to empower an EXPLOITER of tragedy for any cause whether it's a Christian or non-Christian cause...MORALITY would teach you the same lesson...but what more can I expect of people who think they were developed abiogenetically from mineral filled slime...
I respect the athiests that run this site, John, Lee, Harry and many others...but some of the IGNORANCE such as Sconnors, blatant lies and special pleading as if he's in a different class than anyone else, while at the same time calling OTHERS arrogant...PLEASE!
Later Advocate
I REFUSE to empower an EXPLOITER of tragedy for any cause whether...but some of the IGNORANCE such as Sconnors, blatant lies and special pleading as if he's in a different class than anyone else...
Yeah, stick with that harv -- nothing like using a jumble of erroneous and lame excuses, coupled with vile hate speech, to diverge from answering my questions.
Wait, what was that you said? I believe God, but I also know how to minister to and love people.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha -- riiiiiiight. If this is how harvy ministers to and loves people, just imagine how he treats people he hates and is apathetic toward.
--S.
Questions still lingering...
Sconnor ~ "just imagine how he treats people he hates and is apathetic toward"
No, I just treat CHILD EXPLOITERS and USERS such as yourself like this...Can't stand LIARS AND CHARLATANS who use tragedy for their own personal gain behind the guise of intelligence while at the same time calling others arrogant...that LUNACY, DEBASE and VILE and that's you!
PEACE.
Harvey,
What does sconnor have to gain? Do you think he's getting money from people or something?
You are a twelve year old boy, Harvey. No mature adult talks, acts, and insults like you do.
Dear compassionate and loving christian -- harvy,
No, I just treat CHILD EXPLOITERS and USERS such as yourself like this...Can't stand LIARS AND CHARLATANS who use tragedy for their own personal gain behind the guise of intelligence while at the same time calling others arrogant...that LUNACY, DEBASE and VILE and that's you!
Funny -- I thought you didn't want to empower me and yet, I'm completely under your skin. The time you have wasted, stomping around like a two year old, you could have answered my questions.
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claims:
1. provide evidence for such phenomena INCLUDING the regrowth and extension of limbs development of organs etc. in response to believing prayer.
2. How are you privy to this particular god information and explain to us why it is more likely god had anything to do with it, as opposed, to Harry's daughter being lucky enough to be able to get a healthy kidney from him?
3. What if the kidney recipient wasn't lucky enough to get an undamaged kidney from a relative or anyone for that matter and the patient suffered and died as a result?
Ohhhhhhhh, yeah, god allowed that as well -- right Harv?
If something good happens to someone, it's god's will. If something bad happens, well, that's god's will too. Win -- win, right harv?
4. Oh, but you know how godly intervention, really, looks like -- do tell -- how, exactly, do you know how this godly intervention goes down. Why are you privy to this information?
5. ...but you know god's ideals don't you? How, exactly, do you know this? Substantiate your ridiculous, claims.
Substantiate your claims or they are not even worth the minuscule brain power you used to type them.
--S.
Phillip,"You are a twelve year old boy, Harvey. No mature adult talks, acts, and insults like you do."
Then stay off the list budinski...Thank you.
Peace.
harvey, the empathetic, peaceful, compassionate and ohhhhhhhh, so loving christian,
Phillip,"You are a twelve year old boy, Harvey. No mature adult talks, acts, and insults like you do."
harvy, "Then stay off the list budinski...Thank you."
"Peace."
Yep, keep it up harvey, your true, ugly, colors are reigning supreme.
Anyone can chime in, anytime they want to; that's the beauty of posting.
Question, questions, questions and not an answer from harv, to be found.
--S.
There were about 21 comments on point...until a man who thinks he came from UNPURPOSEFUL SLIME all of a sudden becomes moral police...ONLY by his OWN ethic what does it matter what I say or how I act since there is no moral code or moral giver...
Even in all of what I've said I haven't CUSSED one word as the "moral police" has...in fact I haven't used a bleeding heart argument, or anyone else's tragedy to try to rally the troops to my defence by telling lies either...
I told you before...I don't take you serious and could care less about any questions YOU pose Sconnor...your commentary MEANS NOTHING but Jokes to me...OVERRATED!
So stop Mr. Morality, I feel awfully good at least I've managed to help you stop bringing up your so called PAIN every two minutes...So I guess some progress has been made...Seems that I'm the help you needed afterall<;)
PLEASE!
Harvey stated: “I respect the athiests that run this site, John, Lee, Harry and many others...but some of the IGNORANCE such as Sconnors, blatant lies and special pleading as if he's in a different class than anyone else, while at the same time calling OTHERS arrogant...PLEASE!”
But yet Harvey told me earlier: “Write what you will you INTERNET misinformed anti-christ advocate! Love to see it and love EVEN more to put the garbage where it belongs...BACK IN HELL!” (His reply to a post on 4/19/08)
Harvey, you seem to have a kind heart, but one that can turn to rage if provoked (Just like Yahweh when he showed hesid (loving kindness) to the Israelites and, then, when provoked, goes on a killed spire!
David stated: “You have not defended the apparent contradiction you presented, nor have you presented any evidence from the Bible that believers should be doing miracles.”
Harry replied: “Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states these gift have ended.”
Then David stated: “No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest.”
David, have you NOT read ANYTHING our miracle working Harvey Burnett has said about HE HIMSELF performing Biblical miracles (Signs and Wonders)?!
David, Is Harvey doing what I think Jesus and the Bible promises to all believers or is Harvey a fraud?
Harry,
Fisr of all STOP it...there's no rift between David and myself because neither of us believe miracles are normative...They are miracles and exceptions to the normal when they occur...Besides I never stated I was a miracle man ANYWHERE...Come back to reality and get off the badwagon of your friend...
So far as the conversation and my statement to you was concerned...Let's get that right too, because you seem to want to add your name to the athiest sensationalist roll that is becoming even more prevalent on this site.
What happend was this:
we were in the forum written by Lee R. called Disqualifying Adam & Eve""
You and I were discussing the roots of Higher Form Criticism and you were challenging me on stating FACTS about JG Eichhorn. You said this in response to my assertions:
"Do you know what you are even talking about? Higher form criticism was used by Rudolf Bultmann to demythologize the Gospels. Check out his “Jesus Christ and Mythology”.
To which I eventually responded:
"Harry DO YOU EVEN know what you're talking about? That's the question. Bultmann's theories are OLD HAT and have been put down quite superlatively by better and more reputable information...so GET YOUR FACTS STRATIGHT...Old presuppositions DO NOT make good form criticism.
TO EDUCATE YOU...J.G. EICHHORN in the 1787 AS I SAID was the FIRST to apply the SCIENCE of higher form criticism to the Bible in his 'Old Testament Introduction'.
NOW, WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT??? OBVIOUSLY not YOU!"
After which you stated: "One question: Where the hell are you getting you misinformation from?!
Something is FACTUALLY HILLARIOUS here...you advocates say I'm the one angry but EACH of you are the ONLY ones cussin'...What's that about? Anyway, YOU went on to say:
"Harvey, I would suggest you spend less time in useless prayer and more time in something REAL: Scholarly objective Books!
My next post will be dedicated to you. I’m writing it now about lies in the Bible. If you hate what I’ve written thus far, you are really going to ‘blow a gasket” on this next post!
To which i responded:
"Write what you will you INTERNET misinformed anti-christ advocate! Love to see it and love EVEN more to put the garbage where it belongs...BACK IN HELL!"
You then went on to DEDICATE the next post to me...although the post WASN'T about me as you give the sensationalistic impression. It was about your view of the history of Christian Apologetics.
So Harry, paint an ACCURATE picture of things next time. Like they tell my kids in school, "Be a leader NOT a follower."
One more note...I've gone ROUND DAY WAY with Dingo...you know we've had knock-down drag outs. Just the other day we were talking politics and personal issues through email...no LOVE lost and he's a great guy!
What I can't stand are USERS, LIARS,AND EXPLOITERS and I've stated exactly what I mean already in this pitly exchange.
By the way Harry, the topics back then were much more condusive to actual LEARNING...HINT...HINT!
This has got to be the most comical thread on this site yet...I'm personally in tears just reading-LOL!
David:"Its the equivalent of me writing a blog article about why unicorns exist, and then when you challenge me I respond, "Show me one shred of scientific evidence that unicorns don't exist."
You see, since I'm the one writing an article about why unicorns exist then I'm the one who should bolster the evidence."
Well yes David it would seem to be logic that if somebody believed in the existence of unicorns then they would be expected to be the one to provide proof.We dont have many people in this world trying to prove evidence of things they think dont exist,it mostly people proving things that they think do.Surely you can think logically enough to realize it would be rather a wasted world if we had heaps of people running around trying to prove things that they had no belief/faith in.Maybe you think it would be wise for society to pay people to prove the non existence of unicorns,but personally i think it more logical to only pay people who think they have some evidence for the existence of unicorns to further their study.Otherwise David my friend we would have people crawling out of the woodwork everywhere saying i need money to prove the non existence of unicorns. When the world already knows with the lack of evidence of unicorns that its already most logical that they dont exist.
What would be gained by expecting people to prove what we already feel evidence available points to already?
The sun earth and moon looks pretty round to me and most available evidence suggests that mostly that seems to be the case ,how many folk do you know trying to prove that its square or rectangle?.
District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
" Gandolf, Gumbo or whatever,
Stay out of grown folks convo's until you have the FACTS...you have no idea of even the basis for my commentary."
There he goes again straight away talking in tongues ,trying to insult me by childish name calling yet still acting like a rabid dog frothing at the mouth .I can only think that the reason why is because my description of what his characteristics of demeanor were ,was maybe quite a good description and touched a raw nerve and perhaps hurt his pride.
Still not being so childish myself im not going to let some mad dog calling me Gumbo upset me to much , in fact i`ll just see the funny side and shrug it off like water off a ducks back.Ducks dont mind water and i dont mind mad dogs that think they will hurt me by trivial name calling.
But this command is a jolly cracker isnt it! :"Stay out of grown folks convo's "
Oh dear! the stomping of feet , the tantrums! .Dear Harvey, simmer down friend or you`ll be giving yourself a heart attack.
We dont want you to go testing this to quickly do we? :"So the fact that I cannot do this in no way impunes or limits God's ability to do so even at my or someone else's hand. He can, in response to believing prayer. In fact he can do it without prayer at all but the door is closed to intervention of others when he is directly asked and directly moves in response."
Why get yourself all worked up just because people discuss matters about God/s ?.All to often it seems religious folk tell us they dont mind questioning .In fact even suggest their book has passages that suggest its the right thing to do .Yet when it happens all to often they show this strange phenomenon of speaking in tongues ,that to most logical folk seems to be little more than silly tantrums.
Please explain.
Harvey stated: “Fisr of all STOP it...there's no rift between David and myself because neither of us believe miracles are normative...They are miracles and exceptions to the normal when they occur...Besides I never stated I was a miracle man ANYWHERE...Come back to reality and get off the badwagon of your friend…”
Re: Harvey, DID you or DID you NOT claim your church could pray over sick people and they are healed?
Harry stated: "However, Rev. Brown, please bring your apostles working "signs and wonders" to your local hospital and, not only heal the sick, but you’ll prove Biblical truth at the same time winning millions of lost souls"
Fact is Harvey, you clearly stated: “I have done that Harry. I have first hand experience of seeing some who the doctors had medically gave up on before believers gathered, prayed and God raised them up and or reversed their physical illness. In fact Harry, I have some people in my church that were medically diagnosed with cancer and in at least 1 case cancerous tumors. Those tumors no longer exist and cancer is either inremission or cannot be found.”
This is opposite of what David is saying, again: “ No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest.”
Harvey, your are as slick as a politician!
I KNOW what Fundamental Baptist say…I went to Bob Jones University. All Signs and Wonders are over! Period. Tongues are over! Period. Speak in tongues at Bob Jones of any churches that support them and you’ll be kicked out! Period.
David has taken the BJU approach and you don’t have the spine / backbone to stand up and hold your ground. Just “God along; get along”.
Hey, since David is not an atheist, he CAN”T BE WRONG on this!!!
You change color like a lizard; just another reason I’m GLAD I’m not as Christian!
As I said I’d rather be HONEST than RELIGIOUS!!!!!
Harry,
David, Is Harvey doing what I think Jesus and the Bible promises to all believers or is Harvey a fraud?
These tactics are futile. You've previously asserted your position about the Bible's teaching on miracles, and I've asked for the reference. Defend the premise or ditch the argument, right?
Also you said:
This is opposite of what David is saying, again: “ No sir, your claim is under question here. Please quote me chapter and verse where the Bible states "signs and wonders" should still be manifest.”
By asking you substantiate your own claims, now suddenly I have made a statement in contradiction to Harvey? I'd like to see that explanation fleshed out if its legitimate. Harvey and I have no disagreement that I'm aware of.
Gandolf,
Not sure what your last comment was all about, but your original statement was:
Why not David ?is that to logical??.Seems if they ever happened they most likely still would.Seems logical doesnt it ?.David your answer is no more than a typical religious cop out.
Don't take my example of unicorns too far...remember the claim to be substantiated is that the Bible says miracles should be expected in the way Harry asserted.
i think it more logical to only pay people who think they have some evidence for the existence of unicorns to further their study
Yes I agree. Thats why I'm pressing Harry on his claim and refusing to be sidetracked by the negation. I shouldn't have to demonstrate where the Bible teaches not x, but the one making the claim should demonstrate where the Bible teaches x...because the Bible teaches x is the premise in their own argument. Why use a counter example when an internal critique will suffice.
To the pastor with the love of christ, in his heart, harv,
I told you before...I don't take you serious...
And, yet, you continue to respond.
...and could care less about any questions YOU pose Sconnor...your commentary MEANS NOTHING but Jokes to me...OVERRATED!
Methinks you doth protest too much. It's completely obvious you can't answer the serious and germane questions, with any reasonable answers.
So stop Mr. Morality, I feel awfully good at least I've managed to help you stop bringing up your so called PAIN every two minutes...So I guess some progress has been made...Seems that I'm the help you needed afterall<;)
Through the thick haze of your delusions of grandeur, you most certainly, have not helped; you have been morbidly, insensitive, incredibly hurtful and you should be dreadfully, ashamed of yourself. But, in the end, you are so completely, oblivious to just, how hurtful you have been to me.
The all, too real and natural feelings of grief and pain are still with me and have not subsided. And like you said, I can’t imagine the pain, it is truly beyond me. -- coupled by your hurtful remarks, tells me you have zero empathy and no ability to help, in any capacity.
It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone. -- Rose Kennedy
Questions looming.
--S.
Harvy the christian, with the compassion of christ in his heart,
I have every bit of feeling for you and your situation. I have an 11 year old son that I also love with my life. I do not minimize the pain or the reality of your situation IN ANY MANNER.
Hmmmmmmmmmm, harv -- remember writing this?
IN ANY MANNER? But you do minimize the pain and the reality of my situation, by your hateful, hurtful words.
--S.
Harrys questions still stand unanswered !.
"Now lets asked: Just what happened to all the miracles (the works the Gospels calls the “Signs and Wonders”)? Just why did everything come to a sudden stop? Just why don’t we have a continuation of wonder workers or miracle working disciples known as Christians today rising the dead, healing the sick and working “Signs and Wonders” as given by the master Jesus himself to all who believe in the King of Heaven / God and as proof of the Gospel reality? In short, just why are not there Gospels miracles still happening today performed by ALL Christians?"
Thats a good question Harry and a fair question to ask too !.
David says :"remember the claim to be substantiated is that the Bible says miracles should be expected in the way Harry asserted."
No David what needs to be substantiated is the reasons why for some strange reason like a dodo these so called miracles have become extinct.
David if you are trying to suggest that somehow maybe miracles shouldnt be expected you should prove reasons why.You would need to do that because Harrys questions still stands at present. And his thoughts about the resemblance between these claims of miracles and the extinct dodo is still looking like a pretty good remark.
David you said to Harry :"If you care to take a few minutes to collect your thoughts and present some form of a coherent argument as to why there is Biblical warrant today for "signs and wonders" among believers, I it would make this easier for both of us."
Well ok i`ll answer! heres a simple question.To me its seems to be a rather logical one too,not that i believe or have any faith that logic and Christianity has a lot in common.Quite the opposite i think Christianity and most every faith relies on copious amounts of unlogical thinking .Which is why we are sitting here with you trying to suggest that maybe a loving God and father that allowed for signs and wonders to once happen might be expected for some reason to just as easily have let them stop .
But anyway tell me David what use is PRAYER if miracles and signs and wonders maybe cannot/should not be expected to happen today ? .
If what you are trying to suggest is correct then it kinda makes prayer a bit of a extinct dodo ! doesnt it?.Why bother praying if nothings meant to happen! if wonders ceased.
So you are suggesting that maybe some faithful believer in hospital with cancer is wasting time for praying for the wonder of being cured ?.And if the poor bugga is in a coma and cant think or speak for himself, then its just no use for anyone else to be praying over him or speaking in tongues for a wonder to unfold.
Cause just maybe somewhere in that book of yours ,someway somehow by trying to link up some of the scriptures jumbled jargon .That a escape route and contrived case might be found,to be able to forget logical thinking and continued with belief and faith .In that maybe signs and wonders ceased.
David you say to Harry:
"Harry,
No offense my friend, but you aren't making any sense right now. If you care to take a few minutes to collect your thoughts and present some form of a coherent argument as to why there is Biblical warrant today for "signs and wonders" among believers, I it would make this easier for both of us."
Coherent David ? how much more coherent and logically connected and consistent do we really need to be?.What use is even prayer if we cannot expect to see signs and wonders still today ?.
It seems to me that its more your trying at present to get around whats logical that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.
What you are trying to suggest is kinda like saying if the sun doesnt come up tomorrow , then maybe its because its not supposed to.
Gandolf,
After you recover from your meltdown, please read the original post and notice:
1. "Lets say all the facts as recorded in the Gospels were totally true."
2. "Fact is, even if we removed all the debate about the truthful historicity of the New Testament, we still fail to have Christians living and working “Signs and Wonders” among us today."
You said: What you are trying to suggest is kinda like saying if the sun doesnt come up tomorrow , then maybe its because its not supposed to.
You are blinded by your desire to refute Christianity. Pay attention. I am not saying that if miracles don't happen, then maybe its because they aren't supposed to. I'm simply asking Harry to support his premise. He doesn't need you to step in and defend him either.
Thanks gandolf! Excellent follow up and clearly stated as to the facts of my case.
David sated: “After you recover from your meltdown, please read the original post and notice:
1. "Lets say all the facts as recorded in the Gospels were totally true."
2. "Fact is, even if we removed all the debate about the truthful historicity of the New Testament, we still fail to have Christians living and working “Signs and Wonders” among us today."
David, if the “signs and wonders” are over, so too is eternal life in some heaven and hell.
As I’ve state before to other ministers else where:
A. I can curse and blaspheme God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit; nothing happens to me.
BUT in the Bible, King Herod is killed by God: (Acts 12: 23 “And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.”
And again with Acts 5: 1 - 9 “But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him. Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price." Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well." And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.”
And again in Acts 13: 5 – 11: “When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, … But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? "Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand.”
So David, the last two examples are non-Christians who angered God and were struk down.
Now, how do I get God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit to strike me down? Tell me David, you are a Bible Believing Pastor, tell me how I can get the Trinity to strike me down dead?
Oh, I’m sorry …miracles (Signs and Wonders) don’t happen any more; extinct like the Dodo Bird.
Heaven and Hell are just such promises too. Oh, I see! Those are only for the dead and fully knowing they will never talk to disprove them!
So just what does a NON-FUNCITONING God, Jesus, Holy Spirit have left? ZERO! Biblical lies and hot air now as cold as the dead Dodo Bird.
However, reality CLEARLY proves, that while the Dodo Bird DID exists, the Biblical miracles NEVER DID!
David, you bought a “Pig in a Poke” (a bag you thought had a pig in it or, better yet, a bag full of Bible miracles better know as myths) only to find that your sermonizing is the only thing you have left because, one thing is for sure, neither God, nor Jesus nor the Holy Spirit sure the hell will not help you prove your case!
Face is David, all you and your Bible Believing Christians have left is vain and useless rhetoric we atheist call myths!
Harry,
No need to meltdown with Gandolf just because you can't defend your premise. You said you were doing a full post on the Biblical warrant for your claim, will you?
Also:
1. I'm not a pastor
2. The Bible doesn't teach that everyone who blasphemes will be struck down, thus your point is tangential.
3. You have given no reason to accept the premise that the Bible predicts "signs and wonders" today, thus your argument remains unsound.
This thread boils down to yet another "why doesn't God act the way I want him to" tantrum.
But David, I thought you are going to live in Heaven with Jesus when you die? Is that not a “Sign and Wonder”…Jesus coming back…Jesus destroying the Beast, Dragon and casting Satan into the Lake of Fire?
And, oh yes! I’m supposed to live forever in the Lake of Fire too. Is that not a “Sign and Wonder”?
As one person told me, John, the author of Revelation, must have been on LSD. Man, what a trip!
Problem is David, since I don’t believe in Heaven nor Hell/ Lake of Fire, these twin “Signs and Wonders” don’t exist for me anymore that any of the many Hindu gods.
Your “God” is only a mental construct based on a Biblical myth. I challenged the mighty warrior god Yahweh and his King son Jesus, but since they do not exist, your words are “retuning to you empty”.
If the Bible was an enforceable religious contract, churches would be sued out of existence!
Since all you got is empty talk, you can babble away theology just as a superstitious person whistles past a grave yard.
In short, other than wasted keyboarding, what can your god do to me?
David may think, “You just wait! You just wait!” Harry: Oh yes, in about 40 years (if you make it that long) you can say: “See, God got that atheist!” But then your loving god just might take your mind or your own life first!
In the end, I simply not stupid enough to believe an ancient book of myths called the Bible.
I piety you.
Thanks for degrading the conversation to the level of a food fight Harry. I'm sorry you hate Christianity, and I'm sorry you made an unsound argument; however, I don't pity you. Pity seems to imply condescension, but intellectual integrity and a desire for truth motivate me beyond the adolescent drama of shouting matches. We are both men who can engage with intellect and argument, and that is all that interests me. Lets leave the impudent slander for the ones who have no other options. ;)
David,
That's all they resort to because they have NO argument...there were only about 20 to 21 comments on topic on this post that reached 55 comments so far....ridiculous!
Bad arguments and sensationalism that's all they have.
I'll catch you in another forum Harry's lost his mind as usual.
david,
David said, Thanks for degrading the conversation to the level of a food fight Harry...but intellectual integrity and a desire for truth motivate me beyond the adolescent drama of shouting matches. We are both men who can engage with intellect and argument, and that is all that interests me. Lets leave the impudent slander for the ones who have no other options. ;)
Harvy said, That's all they resort to because they have NO argument...there were only about 20 to 21 comments on topic on this post that reached 55 comments so far....ridiculous!
Bad arguments and sensationalism that's all they have.
Sconnor says, I agree, look what this guy said:
In your case however you are the most IDIOTIC athiest I've ever read and...In fact you should stop doing so because to me you're the joke of the athiest realm.
In you, the assertion of Cavin's teachings on TOTAL DEPRAVITY are easily realized.
Further, you're a self described NUT(which is easily affirmed reading your lunatic posts and even site),a SENSATIONALIST, and even worse an EXPLOITER OF YOUR OWN CHILDS DEATH, and I have NO empathy or sympathy for you AT ALL...
You have proven to be the genetically preprogrammed piece of primordial slime that you claim to be.
to me you're the atheistic JOKE of 2008!
Later, CONNOR JR. EXPLOITER!
No, I just treat CHILD EXPLOITERS and USERS such as yourself like this...Can't stand LIARS AND CHARLATANS who use tragedy for their own personal gain behind the guise of intelligence while at the same time calling others arrogant...that LUNACY, DEBASE and VILE and that's you!
until a man who thinks he came from UNPURPOSEFUL SLIME all of a sudden becomes moral police
I feel awfully good at least I've managed to help you stop bringing up your so called PAIN every two minutes...So I guess some progress has been made...Seems that I'm the help you needed afterall<;)
David, you're a good christian, right? Is, what harvy has been spewing, the way a compassionate christian deals with a parent, whose ten year old son has died from leukemia? Has harvy degraded the conversation to the level of a food fight, as evidenced above? Has harvy resorted to the adolescent drama of shouting matches, where impudent slander is his only way of arguing with me?
What do you think?
--S.
sconnor asks David :"What do you (think?)"
They dont bother ! so why bother asking! :)
By the way sconner really sad and so sorry to hear about the loss of your son.I just hope you have plenty of good friends and family .It will never replace the loss of your son ,but good folks around you can help you through tough times and help share the pain.I can only imagine the tough road you must have! , i dont know you but i really suspect that you are somebody that people would miss if you were not around.I really hope you can find the strength to keep going,we need people like yourself in this world who know and really understand just how tough life can get.Honestly! all the best wishes from me !.
Harry this Gandolf meltdown :) will melt away for now .That is unless i see some answers to your good questions arriving.They suggest "You are blinded by your desire to refute Christianity" well i dont mind people casting stones at me im tough skinned and pretty quick having dodged stones cast by Christians most of my early life, so im not about to let a few slow hand stones being cast in my direction worry me that much!.
But the truth is ! i seek for proof and any (real) reason to believe .
That they can give no real proof and real reason i then see no reason to believe in faith by the default theory.The default theory seems to be, though we cant prove matters maybe its true and we should still have faith because its what we have been taught and is whats written within books of old.
Thats not good reason neither is it good proof.
In the end, David and Harvey are walking around with plastic toy guns claiming they shot real bullets and that these toy guns can REALLY KILL YOU.
I simply asked them to point it at me and pull the trigger. David says that’s not a logical argument to prove their toy gun is real.
Since David and Harvey basically know the gun is harmless, his faith has them verbalize a real gun by faith and claim no one yet has proven the toy gun can not kill. They do not have to point, aim and pull the trigger since it’s a useless toy.
So David just keeps talking about how real it is. David points to a story and adventure book called the Bible and claims the toy gun really did kill people then (Signs and Wonders), but lets just talk and play Cowboy today and, by faith, dream about what a plastic toy gun COULD DO if ONLY….but lets talk about theological logic and just why I do not have to prove anything to non-believers of toy plastic guns.
David and Harvey say “Bang, Bang”, but Harry is still here.
Finally, apart form the “You have not disproven anything” about the toy gun argument, the Bible is like the fierce caged animal in a zoo which people fear and claim can tear humans to pieces, but is totally debunked when the park ranger walks over and points out that; “Folks, don’t let looks fool you, it’s only a harmless fruit eater!” Thus we have the Bible… fierce in past claims, but “only a harmless fruit eater”.
David and Harvey want to discuss why their toy gun COULD REALLY kill you. This discussion is very important to keep their harmless fruit eater toy gun Bible alive.
So, they continue to play shot their toy guns: Bang, Bang (Talk, Talk). Without verbalization, both God and the toy guns cease!
Harvey, you say:
I get it, you're not slime now, but you came from slime which occurred through random chance over billions of years...yea right...OK
Then you have the NERVE to go here: Life is a gift;
A GIFT? What the John Hay is That? A gift from where and whom in the Athiest world view? What is that about?
Well, Harvey, it's a long story. If you're really interested, you might read these threads at Triablogue, where I discuss that very thing, and get responses very similar to yours. You can judge for yourself who made the better case (and who was more polite). Start here, then go here, then here. Check it out if you are really interested.
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