Religion and Hate: A Marriage Made in Heaven
We often hear from the Christian evangelicals: “God hates the sin; but God loves the sinner.” (A non-Biblical statement used to gloss over the fact that the “loved” unforgiven sinner will fry like bacon for eternity in the Lake of Fire (Hell) because of “God’s love“). But remember sinner, you sent yourself there, not your loving Heavenly Father.
Or again: If God be for me/us, who can be against me/us?! This statement is simply an excuse to exploit religious bigotry and hatred under the guise of salvation theology. Anyone who doubts this need only read Brad S. Gregory’s Salvation at Stake: Christian Martyrdom in Modern Europe (Harvard University Press, 1999) and winner of the Thomas J. Wilson Prize of Harvard University Press. The fly cover states:
Thousands of men and women were executed for incompatible religious views in sixteenth-century Europe. The meaning and significance for those deaths are studied here comparatively for the first time, providing a compelling argument for the importance of martyrdom as both a window onto religious sensibilities and a crucial component in the formation of divergent Christian traditions and identities. … Gregory shows us the shifting perspectives of authorities willing to kill, martyrs willing to die, martyrologists eager to memorialize, and controversialists keen in dispute.
Be it in John Calvin’s Geneva, Luther and Melanchthon in favor of death for the Anabaptist, the Catholic Inquisition or the killing of witches in New England; the Hebrew Bible set the precedence in the slaughter of all of God’s non-chosen people in the land of Canaan.
This is followed in the New Testament where even a loving “Gentile Jesus meek and mild” states:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (Matthew 10: 34 - 37) and Jesus in the final stage of Salvation History is depicted riding a white horse in Revelation 19: 11 - 21 wheeling a sword to the slaughter:
“And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.” (verse 21).
Even the Ku Klux Klan’s website proclaims that “Our Entire Group of Sites are Family and Christian Friendly” which is re-enforced by their own Pastor Thomas Robb of the World Church of the Creator:
A racist recognizes within their kindred people a special relationship with Jesus Christ. They recognize that race is but one aspect of living a Christian life, but such an important one that the mingling of the races, will as in the days of mingling in the scripture cause God’s wrath to fall upon his children. Peace on earth for all nations and races can only come about by adhering to Biblical truth. It is we who are the compassionate ones because we understand that true satisfaction and happiness will not be felt by everyone until God’s word and his edicts are felt throughout the land. Our job in the Knights’ is to send a wake up call, to inform our white brothers and sisters of their rightful inheritance and to ask them to repent so that God will bless our nation once again. We want God to use us to bring a message of revival throughout the world.
With Bible courses such as: The Anglo-Saxon Jesus sold in their White Heritage Book Store, the positive side of religious hate can be made very family friendly.
Finally, to show how vicious another monotheistic religious tradition can be, this is from an August 17, ‘08 new paper:
A Saudi Arabian Muslim father cut out his daughter's tongue and lit her on fire upon learning that she had become a Christian.
The child became curious about Jesus Christ after she read Christian material online, the Gulf News reported.
Her father read of her Internet conversation, detached her tongue and burned her to death "following a heated debate on religion," according to an International Christian Concern report. The father is employed by the muwateen, or Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice. The muwateen are police tasked by the government with enforcing religious purity. The man has been taken into custody, and his identity has not been released.
The ICC pointed out the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom has reported textbooks at the Saudi Arabian government school in Northern Virginia teach, "It is permissible for a Muslim to kill an apostate (a convert from Islam)."
Saudi Arabian oil money is used to export Wahabbism – a version of Islam said to be least tolerant toward non-Muslims – to other nations, including the U.S., ICC notes.
ICC president Jeff King said, "Saudi Arabia has to treat Christians with the same respect that it wants Muslims to be treated in other countries. It has to stop exporting hate and persecution against Christians in other countries."
Or again: If God be for me/us, who can be against me/us?! This statement is simply an excuse to exploit religious bigotry and hatred under the guise of salvation theology. Anyone who doubts this need only read Brad S. Gregory’s Salvation at Stake: Christian Martyrdom in Modern Europe (Harvard University Press, 1999) and winner of the Thomas J. Wilson Prize of Harvard University Press. The fly cover states:
Thousands of men and women were executed for incompatible religious views in sixteenth-century Europe. The meaning and significance for those deaths are studied here comparatively for the first time, providing a compelling argument for the importance of martyrdom as both a window onto religious sensibilities and a crucial component in the formation of divergent Christian traditions and identities. … Gregory shows us the shifting perspectives of authorities willing to kill, martyrs willing to die, martyrologists eager to memorialize, and controversialists keen in dispute.
Be it in John Calvin’s Geneva, Luther and Melanchthon in favor of death for the Anabaptist, the Catholic Inquisition or the killing of witches in New England; the Hebrew Bible set the precedence in the slaughter of all of God’s non-chosen people in the land of Canaan.
This is followed in the New Testament where even a loving “Gentile Jesus meek and mild” states:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (Matthew 10: 34 - 37) and Jesus in the final stage of Salvation History is depicted riding a white horse in Revelation 19: 11 - 21 wheeling a sword to the slaughter:
“And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.” (verse 21).
Even the Ku Klux Klan’s website proclaims that “Our Entire Group of Sites are Family and Christian Friendly” which is re-enforced by their own Pastor Thomas Robb of the World Church of the Creator:
A racist recognizes within their kindred people a special relationship with Jesus Christ. They recognize that race is but one aspect of living a Christian life, but such an important one that the mingling of the races, will as in the days of mingling in the scripture cause God’s wrath to fall upon his children. Peace on earth for all nations and races can only come about by adhering to Biblical truth. It is we who are the compassionate ones because we understand that true satisfaction and happiness will not be felt by everyone until God’s word and his edicts are felt throughout the land. Our job in the Knights’ is to send a wake up call, to inform our white brothers and sisters of their rightful inheritance and to ask them to repent so that God will bless our nation once again. We want God to use us to bring a message of revival throughout the world.
With Bible courses such as: The Anglo-Saxon Jesus sold in their White Heritage Book Store, the positive side of religious hate can be made very family friendly.
Finally, to show how vicious another monotheistic religious tradition can be, this is from an August 17, ‘08 new paper:
A Saudi Arabian Muslim father cut out his daughter's tongue and lit her on fire upon learning that she had become a Christian.
The child became curious about Jesus Christ after she read Christian material online, the Gulf News reported.
Her father read of her Internet conversation, detached her tongue and burned her to death "following a heated debate on religion," according to an International Christian Concern report. The father is employed by the muwateen, or Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice. The muwateen are police tasked by the government with enforcing religious purity. The man has been taken into custody, and his identity has not been released.
The ICC pointed out the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom has reported textbooks at the Saudi Arabian government school in Northern Virginia teach, "It is permissible for a Muslim to kill an apostate (a convert from Islam)."
Saudi Arabian oil money is used to export Wahabbism – a version of Islam said to be least tolerant toward non-Muslims – to other nations, including the U.S., ICC notes.
ICC president Jeff King said, "Saudi Arabia has to treat Christians with the same respect that it wants Muslims to be treated in other countries. It has to stop exporting hate and persecution against Christians in other countries."
49 comments:
Wow, Harry, with post like this I have the impression that, if you were there at Salem, you'd be at the head of the line with the torches; only the "witch" would be "theist". So what should we do, Harry? Round 'em up and kill them all? Dispell with this whole facade of the idea of "freedom" and implement "thought crime" legislation?
Yeah Rick, small problem. You know they gathered those witches and killed them because of the bibical line "Tolerate not the Witch to Live"? Might want to not pick your metaphors that refienforce the point your trying to debunk.
My opinion for a logical goal would always be simple. Do, believe, think whatever you want. When you try to apply it to someone else you've gone too far.
I don't care if it's doing drugs, daredevil stunts, beleiving in Jesus, do whatever you want to yourself.
I admit that those examples are extreme. But you know they're all true. relgion has brought so much pain into the world it's insane. And people still call it the good news.
Rick, I'm sure his point is simply that he finds killing and dying purely for the sake of an outward statement of faith to be wrong. That girl might have lived, had she lied to the bastard.
I never did get that either. I'd think God should know what's really inside a person's heart, but with moral "absolutes", there are simply no shades of gray. Obey, or you burn.
Let me ask you: If hundreds of children were paraded in front of you one by one, and you were asked to say "Satan is Lord" as each one passed you by, or else they would be mutilated in the most horrible way you could imagine, would you do it to spare them?
If you merely THINK you would (this particular situation need never come to pass), that particular sin is already in your heart NOW. You have already denied your Lord.
Any price is worth paying to preserve your salvation, right? And God doesn't want to hear your excuses. You should never deny him, period, is the way I've always heard it taught.
Often the best thing Christians have going for them is that they're ignorant of what they're giving their assent to.
And yet I'm no atheist. I just can't tolerate a ridiculous thing when I see it.
Rick, I am going to leave all the killing and burning to Yahweh (God) and Jesus. Obviously you did not read my post on August 7 entitled “A God Driven by Blood and Death”.
If you are a theist, do you claim also to be a religionist?
Your comment is a typical l“knee junk” response and not one base one the Biblical text, but then I’ve noticed you Jesus lovers seem to never understand just why your Jesus NEVER ONCE criticized his murderous father Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible.
Let’s see now: Rick loves Jesus; the KKK loves Jesus; the Spanish Inquisition loves Jesus; Loving Jesus for a theist is totally an option; Billy Graham loves Jesus; the nut who blew up a gay bar, abortion clinic plus set off a boom at the Olympics in Atlanta loves Jesus; the hate monger Rev. Phelps loves Jesus.
Gosh Rick, you Jesus lovers are in the majority when compared to us atheist!
I see on your blogger description your interest is J-E-S-U-S! GLORY! and not the historical Jesus of the Historical Critical Method.
Harry,
You have listed some of the bad things that come from religion. Now what about some good things that comes from religion.
Harold
Harold, religion is simply the extension of the human nature into the mythical world of the divine. In other words, humanity is God’s eyes, hears, arms and legs; without which he/she /they could not function. Be it in the Enuma elis (the seven tables of the Akkadian Creation Epic) or the Hebrew Bible’s Book of Genesis, the god creates so they themselves can exist via the human who record their myths.
If there is any good in religion, its only because humans are good and this is reflected in the gods they created and now worship.
Harry,
If religion is simply an extension of the human nature then the bad we see in religion would be from the negative part of human nature. God does not exist and I see no reason why we don’t call things as they really are. People hate not because of religion. People hate because people hate,and religion does not make people hate. Those people who want to justify their hate will create a religion of hate. Just like people who are good will create a religion of good. Even with out religion people still do evil and bad things. Just look at the nations like China and Russia they have no religious affiliation yet they do terrible things. Religion is not the culprit here the human heart is.
Harold
One very important thing you may be forgetting about God. God is holy and He wants and expects holiness. This is why God calls, at times, the death of a person or persons. God does not call for hate, He calls for obedience. The problem that arises is that there are some people who do use this as an excuse to hate people when that is not what God says. Actually, God does say that if you hate someone you are guilty of murder.
First off Harold , Judaism, Christianity and Islam are “Book Religions“. Their morals and ethics are derived from a set text of outdated ideals given to ancient humanity by either a school (the redaction of the Hebrew text) or a charismatic figure (Jesus).
Our post at DC are aimed at the conservative evangelical faith community as a way to show the other side of what the Biblical text really says. Their “God” is simply a sugar pill where faith gives comfort and support, especially of those who socialize together in a church community.
As you pointed out, (and I have expressed) there is no good God / religion or bad God / religion: There is only humanity longing to please its mythical mental self.
In general, the evangelical nature of the believer is directly proportional to the limitation placed on the study of Christianity to support set creedal statements. All one needs do is compare courses at a major University (Harvard, Yale, Princeton) with strongly evangelical schools such as Bob Jones University, Dallas Theological Seminary, and the hundreds of “Bible” schools and colleges thoughout the United States. Object education that studies the total world context that created a religion or the many Christianities is a proven way to let the evangelical air out of the missionary or preacher.
As I stated else where before; if you want to see your god, just look in the mirror.
Hi Kevin.
So, are you saying that we should just except the hate and violence being preached in the name of your lord as a necessary by-product of your religion?
Why should the rest of us have to suffer because you can't effectively police yourselves?
Harold said, "People hate not because of religion. People hate because people hate,and religion does not make people hate. Those people who want to justify their hate will create a religion of hate."
If a non-believer beats his wife, he's a brute. If pastor beats his wife he's ridding her of demons.
If a heathen scams somebody out their life savings they are scum. If an evangelist scams a hundred people out of their life savings he was simply bad at math.
If an atheist rapes a 14 year old she's a pervert. If a youth minister molests a halfdozen adolescents he was seduced.
If a muslem calls for the death of American soldiers he's a terrorist. If Fred Phelps does it he's exercising his constitutional rights.
If a pagan murders someone in cold blood he's a monster. If a true believer commits murder he's doing god's work.
Your argument sounds a lot like the old NRA slogan - the bible doesn't preach hate, people do.
The bible just makes it whole lot easier to get away with it.
Kevin wrote: This is why God calls, at times, the death of a person or persons. God does not call for hate, He calls for obedience.
Ok, Kevin. For the sake of argument, let's assume that God does exist, expect holiness and demands death when his expectations are not met.
Perhaps you can explain, If God is omnipotent, omniscient and really wants someone to die, why do human beings have to do God's dirty work? Because, if God made it perfectly clear that only he should cause the death of those he truly wanted to die, it seems that all of these problems would go away.
For example, human beings are not omniscient. Nor do they all agree on an interpretation of what offenses God thinks should be punishable by death. So it's not a question of IF humans will kill someone whom God doesn't want to die, but how often? However, God, being omniscient, would know exactly who should be killed for their actions and wouldn't accidentally kill the wrong person.
Also, why would God ask us to kill when doing so would would desensitize us to the act of taking human life? Again, an omniscient God would realize that the act of killing other human beings has an a traumatic effect and can leave us to more likely to kill in other situations which are not "approved" by God. However, God being perfect would be impervious to taking life.
It seems that it would be a win-win situation for God and humans if God made it clear that he and he alone, would kill those whom he deemed should die.
Of course, if God did not exist, it would be rather difficult for God to do his own dirty work.
Christians who say that God hates sin but loves the sinner just haven't read the bible. There are many places in the bible that teach God hates people.
Psalms 5:5
The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
Psalms 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.
Psalms 105:25-25
The LORD made his people very fruitful; he made them too numerous for their foes,
whose hearts he turned to hate his people, to conspire against his servants.
Romans 9:10-13
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated
Apparently my previous post was rejected. Lets try a less extreme answer to this:
I personnely think the single mos dangerous thing about chrisitanity isn't it's hate, willingness to demand violence, or demands of blind obidence. It has to be their ablity to turn childern into their weapons.
I think relgion, this one in particular, are used far to often as an instrument of indocrination. A child with a nutjob parent often relaizes their parents hate isn't logical. So couple that hate with a monthilic orgnization (even if only a demonation/fraction) to tell them how their god hates that group and you end up with a far more effective anvil for forging your weapons.
This is exacxtly why I hate their relgion. I spent a few minuites today debating god with a man on the street (some minister yelled at me and then tried to convert me). I have no hate for him, he seemed pretty harmless even when I tried to ruffle his feathers. He was taken aback by my arguments and even seemed to think about them. He said he needed time to ruminate on answers, but never did he scream or even fall back on old christian answers. I have to say I repsect him if not his beleives.
BTW: Check "Pearls Before Swine" today (aug 22, 2008). It sums my thoughts on reilgon nicely
http://www.comics.com/comics/pearls/
If God go REALLY hates only sin, but loves the sinner, then why did he destroy the entire world in the Great Flood?
This flood killed (if one believes the Genesis account) not only adults, but babies, the unborn and the mentally retarded, plus all the animals (who, according to the Hebrew Bible, Yahweh thinks can “sin” also).
But God forgot “fish“…Dolphins, whales, shells fish, Penguins, sea birds, and the like! Whoops: our ALL KNOWING GOD just screwed up!
Please Christians, the next time God goes on a killing spree, please remind him to KILL EVERYTHING! Amen Brother?!
Even a God of HATE has his limitations.
Harry, Sounds like you really hate the God of the bible. All you seem to have in argument is a bunch of emotionalism and whining. I really appreciate the good scriptures that have been posted. Yes, the bible says that God does not love everyone. As a matter of fact, it states that certain individuals are destined to be damned. So your PROBLEM is not that there is no God, it is God!
Richard, “God” only exists as a concept and I attack this concept. As for as your statement: “Yes, the bible says that God does not love everyone. As a matter of fact, it states that certain individuals are destined to be damned.”
I’m a reverse Calvinist: God is destine to be damned by the very people who created him.
Richard, I can ride my bicycle of life without my “God training wheels”. I’m sorry to read where you can NOT do the same.
As for as God goes, the British military statement applies here:
No quarters offered. No quarters requested.
If you think my ass is God’s after death; well, his ass is mine now!
Harry, why does it bother you so much that there are people that believe in the Christian God? Why is your atheism like a fundementalist religion. If you believe that there is no God, then fine. Is it that you are really trying to prove to yourself that there is no God? It seems that you don't have much of an argument that there is not a God, it's the God of the bible that you resent.
Richard, I am an “evangelical” atheist. I want everyone to experience the freedom and peace from myth than I know.
If the Bible is the “Word of God”, then it and its God and Jesus are my targets.
If, indeed God is TRUTH, then he/she has nothing to worry about. I would simply rather be truthful than religious!
Harry, statements like this, "Richard, I am an “evangelical” atheist", and this, "If the Bible is the “Word of God”, then it and its God and Jesus are my targets",
validate my statements of you. What makes you any different than the bible thumpers that try to legislate morality (what they percieve as morality, that is) or the pentecostal turn or burn fanatics using scare tactics that are out there?
Harry, I'll be the first to tell you that if you want to believe or not believe truth or a lie, then that's on you. There will be no evangelizing by me, guaranteed.
What seperates a christian evangelical from an atheists evangelical?
Gee so many choices...
Lets start with atheists don't stand in the way of life saving sceince for their god
Continue with atheists don't activly try to prevent sceince from treading on the toes of imginary characters by studying evolution
atheists don't try to crush the right on minorities based on the word of god (like them fags)
atheists don't demand morale high ground with a clearly defined reason ( good example of the christain thought process: http://www.comics.com/comics/pearls/archive/pearls-20080822.html )
atheists don't use thier relgion as the end all of reasons that person is right.
atheists don't demand unthinking obidence to their god or else suffer eternal suffering.
What hate and violence did Jesus preach? When Jesus walked the earth it is told that he cured people of multiple ailments, took the time to talk with the village harlot, and even sat down to dinner with sinners. Jesus loved everyone and was "Peace" if a man could be considered as such.
I have read many of the posts at this site. It is interesting to me that while I see much is said about people and their evils ways, nothing is said about where this may come from, other than it must come from God. Humph.
Jesus replied, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.
Mark 13:5-6
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1 Peter 5:8
Hate does not come from God, hate comes from the enemy. The KKK are not Christians, they may "come in his name" but they are deceivers. There is a battle being waged, Good against Evil, God vs. the devil. Is this so difficult to comprehend? The enemy is waiting to devour as many as possible, and I don't think he is starving.
Why do I care to debunk your debunking? I don't know any of the people posting these blogs. I honestly have little to do with politics. I have no political agenda. Do I consider myself an Evangelical Christian? Yes, I do. Why does it hurt my heart to see others so blinded by the enemy? Because I know that God exists. What do I gain if just one person believes me? Not political gain, not wealth, I receive nothing of substance. I probably won't even know it has happened. But, one more person that knows God, that is awesome, one more person that will not be subjected to the enemies lies, that is awesome.
Nothing can be taken at face value. No one can know a Christian simply by seeing them go to church or hearing their proclamation of Christianity. Faith in God lives in your heart. A Christian grows their relationship with God in many ways, but none more than their "personal" relationship with Him through prayer and trust. Works alone do nothing. That is mostly what I see in these posts. Debating about "Christians" works, which mean nothing.
I don't want anyone to come to my church, practice fellowship with me, I don't want them to even believe as I do. All I wish is that everyone could establish their own personal relationship with God.
Here I foolishly thought that if you accepted the "magic" of christianity you where a chrisitian. God forgives all right and has called for his own genocides. Why not the KKKs version?
But as for your precious savor he calls for:
Self mutilation: Matthew 5:29
burning of unbeleivers: Matthew 13:41
Impotent threats (seems a Bin Laden thing to do); Matthew 24:34
Back to war against unbeilvers: Luke 9:50, 11:23, Mark 9:40
(assuming anyone can determine what the messiah means here)
And this is just what I found in maybe 20mins of searching. Wonder what I could find if I did more?
Maybe wonder why god calls for genocide and jesus never says no?
Maybe find the quotes for when jesus lead armies, posted elsewhere on this board?
Maybe wonder about about all the god stuff that's evil since he and god are one and the same?
But you know what. I do share a snetiment with you. I feel bad to see people blinded by evil. The only difference is I see your god and relgion as inheriantly evil and you think them good.
So I'm trying to save a few minds. I've already succeded at least once. What better work can a man do?
Heather quoted the bible: "Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many."
Mark 13:5-6
Aren't you coming here in the name of christ? Why should we believe you?
Tigg 13 -
I don't think that I have proclaimed who's name I come in. I have a point of view, as do all of those posting comments. I would like to make my point of view known. I personally think that my Christian views are unique, and very hard to get across in this context. However, I feel compelled to attempt it.
I will never tell someone how to live their life, what is wrong or right. I choose not to judge. I am only Human and I have enough to deal with making my own decisions and mistakes. Everyone makes their own choices and own decisions. The only thing I urge is allowing God to live in your heart. From there you are own your own with Him.
Hi Heather.
First, I begged the christian god to come into my heart. He passed.
Second, would you be alright with some other god coming into my heart? Allah? Vishnu? Chrishna? Gaia? Can I reach a sense of inner peace without any god at all?
Third, if being a christian is such a good thing, how do you explain all the bad things christians do - often in the name of christ?
How much of your life have you had to sacrifice for this personal relationship with god? If you found out tomorrow that your god doesn't exist, would you still think this sacrifice was worth it?
I don't know about you but I don't want to have a relationship with a God who sits back and watches as little babies get raped and burned to death. Especialy when he has the ability to stop it but doesn't.
This God of yours is insane.
Tigg 13 -
Okay, I can understand your thought process. Many years ago, when I was not a Christian, I pursued the path of Christianity. I tried really hard. I went to church, two to three times a week. I attempted to read the Bible(for some reason, could never get past a couple pages). I said the words asking God into my life. I didn't change. I didn't feel anything. I was only going through the motions, doing what the other people around me wanted me to do. I soon stopped going to that church. As a side note, that church was more into preaching AT me and making money than anything to do with God. Fast forward a few years. I begin attending a local church, mostly because my kids enjoy the youth group and I want to see what is being taught to them. Hmmm. I kinda like it. I then, quite personally, alone, begged God to fill me. Remove those things and thoughts that are not of him and replace it with Him. All of suuden, I couldn't get enough of the Bible. I stopped cussing, without intentionally holding my tongue. The change in me is apparant, I know this because my husband freaked out. :) But guess what, I still love to drink beer and go dancing with my husband, in fact, my life is better since God is in it. Yes, there are the Commandments. I do not see the Bible as a rule book for me to follow. I believe that Christianity of these times has gotten totally off base, how it appears that people use the Bible as a rule book instead of using it as a collection of stories and letters documenting what is known of God and Jesus from the earliest times. To me, being a Christian is very basic. Have Faith in Him, have Faith that Jesus died for us and we now have a way to God through Him. Be in the World, but not of the World. The rest of it just comes. I talk with God a lot, I read His word a lot.
You asked about sacrifice...I have not sacrificed anything. In fact, I probably saved a good marriage, and have much more happiness in my life. What would I have to sacrifice to be Christian?
Why do Christians do bad things? Maybe they aren't Christians. Just because you say you are something doesn't make you that something. And, last time I checked Christians are still human. I do not presume to be better than anyone else. My relationship with God is on a personal level, I don't have to proclaim how wonderful I am and without sin(yeah right) to all in order to confirm to myself that I am a Christian. I still say a curse word now and again, I still get angry, I often have struggles, but, when I stop and ask for Gods help, it comes and I am able to continue living the best way I can. When you stop asking God for help, then I guess you may run into trouble.
Cole - Not sure if you knew, but we are not in Heaven. God does not have control over all, as all do not follow Him. As my husband likes to say, "we are already in Hell".
Bahramthered, you said "Lets start with atheists don't stand in the way of life saving sceince for their god"
I have never been against the furtherance of science and medicine. I have never prevented scientific research or even suggested it.
"Continue with atheists don't activly try to prevent sceince from treading on the toes of imginary characters by studying evolution"
I hold to the theory of evolution. Both of my teenagers go to public school and I advise them often, to study their science books and learn as much as they can about science and math.
"atheists don't try to crush the right on minorities based on the word of god (like them fags)"
I have never taken or been for the taking of rights away from homosexuals.
Bahramthered, I can only speak for myself, but I have a feeling that there are many in the faith community that are just like me.
Heather,
The bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign and does whatever He pleases.
Ps. 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens; and His sovereignty rules over all.
Ps. 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.
Ps. 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone. This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.
Ps. 127:1 Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it. Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman keeps awake in vain.
Ps. 130:8 And He will redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
Ps. 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in seas and in all deeps.
Ps. 138:4 All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, O Lord, when they have heard the words of Thy mouth. And they will sing of the ways of the Lord.
Ps. 138:8 The Lord will accomplish what concerns me.
Ps. 139:7-12 Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence?
Ps. 139:16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.
Ps. 145:9 The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works.
Ps. 145:10 All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee.
Ps. 145:14 The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down.
Ps. 145:15 The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time.
Ps. 145:16 You dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.
Ps. 145:21 My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord; and all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.
Ps. 148:8 Fire and hail, snow and clouds; stormy wind, fulfilling His word.
Pr. 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
Pr. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pr. 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.
Pr. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Pr. 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established.
P Pr. 20:24 Man's steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?
P Pr. 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Pr. 21:31 The horse is prepared for the day of battle, but victory belongs to the Lord.
P Eccl. 3:14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear [be in awe of] Him.
P Isaiah 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it.
Isaiah 4:3 And it will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace...from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.
Isaiah 10:5-7 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger and the staff in whose hands is My indignation. I send it against a godless nation....Yet it does not so intend nor does it plan so in its heart.
Isaiah 10:15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.
Isaiah 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant within them will return; a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
Isaiah 11:9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand.
Isaiah 14:27 For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?
Isaiah 19:17 And the land of Judah will become a terror to Egypt; everyone to whom it is mentioned will be in dread of it, because of the purpose of the Lord of hosts which He is purposing against them.
Isaiah 22:11 But you did not depend on Him who made it, nor did you take into consideration Him who planned it long ago.
Isaiah 23:9 The Lord of hosts has planned it to defile the pride of all beauty, to despise all the honored of the earth.
Isaiah 25: 7-8 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord will wipe tears away from all faces, and He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken.
Isaiah 26:9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgements, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. [Ed., The ultimate purpose of God’s judgements is to learn, not burn!]
Isaiah 26:12 Lord, Thou wilt establish peace for us, since Thou hast also performed for us all our works,
Isaiah 27:3 I, the Lord, am its [the vineyard's] keeper; I water it every moment, lest anyone damage it; I guard it night and day.
Isaiah 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
Isaiah 43:13 Even from eternity I am He; and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?
Isaiah 43:20 Because I have given waters in the wilderness and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My chosen people. The people whom I formed for Myself, will declare My praise.
Isaiah 45:4-5 For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel My chosen one, I have called you [Cyrus, King of Persia] by your name. I have given you a title of honor though you have not known Me... I will gird you though you have not known Me. [Ed., Cyrus was an unbelieving Gentile ruler. Although sympathetic to the Israelites, by decree he helped restore all the other false deities to their renovated temples.]
Isaiah 45:6,7 There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating calamity [Lit.,"ra", evil]. I am the Lord who does all these.
Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host.
Isaiah 45:17 Israel has been saved by the Lord with an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated to all eternity.
Isaiah 45:22,23 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 46:9-11 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, "My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure"; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.
Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
Isaiah 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals, and brings out a weapon for its work; and I have created the destroyer to ruin. No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper.
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
Isaiah 57:17,18 Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid my face and was angry, and he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners creating the praise of the lips.
Isaiah 59:15,16 Now the Lord saw, and it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice. And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him; and His righteousness upheld Him.
Isaiah 60:21 Then all your people [all Israel] will be righteous; They will possess the land forever, the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, that I may be glorified.
Isaiah 60:22 The smallest one will become a clan, and the least one a mighty nation. I, the Lord, will hasten it in its time.
Isaiah 61:11 For as the earth brings forth its sprouts, and as a garden causes the things sown in it to spring up, so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring up before all the nations.
Isaiah 63:17 Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways, and harden our heart from fearing Thee? Return for the sake of Thy servants, the tribes of Thy heritage.
Isaiah 65:1 I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, "Here am I, here am I," to a nation which did not call on My name.
Isaiah 66:1 Thus says the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest? For My hand made all these things; thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
Isaiah 66:18,23 For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory..."All mankind [lit., all flesh] will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.
Jer. 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.
Jer. 4:28 Because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I will not change My mind [lit. be sorry], nor will I turn from it.
Jer. 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
Jer. 16:21 Therefore behold, I am going to make them know--- This time I will make them know My power and My might; And they shall know that My name is the Lord.
Jer. 18:11 Thus says the Lord, "I am fashioning evil [Heb. "ra"] against you [His chosen people] and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds." [Ed., God uses evil for the purpose of helping initiate reform.]
Jer. 23:3 Then I Myself shall gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and shall bring them back to their pasture; and they will be fruitful and multiply.
Jer. 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?" declares the Lord. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the Lord.
Jer. 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.
Jer. 27:5 I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
Jer. 29:11,12 "For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you..."
Jer. 31:1,3 "At that time," declares the Lord, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people."..."I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness."
Jer. 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord. "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer. 31:34 And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Jer. 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?
Jer. 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear [awe] of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
Jer. 46:28 For I shall make a full end of all the nations where I have driven you [Israel], yet I shall not make a full end of you; But I shall correct you properly and by no means leave you unpunished. [Ed., God's punishments are always for correction, and are therefore remedial, not vindictive.]
Jer. 51:12 For the Lord has both purposed and performed what He spoke concerning the inhabitants...
Lam. 2:17 The Lord has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His word which He commanded from days of old.
Lam. 3:31 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.
Lam. 3:37-39 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth? Why should any living mortal, or any man, offer complaint in view of his sins?
Ezekiel 7:9 I will repay you according to your ways, while your abominations are in your midst; then you will know that I, the Lord, do the smiting.
Ezekiel 12:25 For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed.
Ezekiel 20:44 Then you will know that I am the Lord when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel, declares the Lord God.
Ezekiel 24:14 I, the Lord, have spoken; it is coming and I shall act.
Ezek. 36:22-27 Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went...Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Ezekiel 36:31-32 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord God, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!".
Ezekiel 37:5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, "Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life." [Ed., This points to Jesus saying, “I am the resurrection and the life.” (Jn. 11:25) Also Paul states, “And even when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions. (Col. 2:13; Ephes. 2:4,5)]
Ezekiel 37:14 And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it," declares the Lord.
Ezekiel 38:23 And I shall magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord. [Ed., This phrase is used literally dozens of times through out Ezekiel and through out all of scripture. It is the basis for all of God's sovereign dealings with man, and reveals His ultimate goal and intention: "...that I may know Him..." (Phil 3:10). "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." (Jn 17:3)]
Daniel 2: 21 And it is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men, and knowledge to men of understanding.
Daniel 2:44 And in the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
Daniel 4:3 How great are His signs, and how great are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done."
Daniel 5:23 But the God in whose hand are your life-breath and your ways, you have not glorified.
Daniel 7:13,14 I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve Him. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.
Daniel 11:36 For that which is decreed will be done.
Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of Sheol; I will redeem them from death. O death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting?
Hosea 14:4 I will heal their apostasy, I will love them freely, for My anger has turned away from them.
Joel 2:26-32 And you shall have plenty to eat and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, who has dealt wondrously with you; then My people will never be put to shame. Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God and there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. And it will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions…For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Amos 3:6-8 If calamity [lit. "ra", evil] occurs in a city has not the Lord done it? Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets. A lion has roared! Who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken! Who can but prophesy?
Amos 4:13 For behold, He who forms mountains and creates the wind and declares to man what are His thoughts, He who makes dawn into darkness and treads on the high places of the earth, The Lord God of hosts is His name.
Jonah 2:9 Salvation is from the Lord.
Micah4:6-7 In that day, declares the Lord, I will assemble the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcasts a strong nation, and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.
Micah 5:2 But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.
Micah 7:18-20 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. Thou wilt give truth to Jacob and unchanging love to Abraham, which Thou didst swear to our forefathers from the days of old.
Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Hab. 3:12-13 In indignation Thou didst march through the earth; in anger Thou didst trample (thresh) the nations. Thou didst go forth for the salvation of Thy people, for the salvation of Thine anointed. Thou didst strike the head of the house of the evil to lay him open from thigh to neck.
Hab. 3:19 The Lord God is my strength, and He has made my feet like hinds' feet, and makes me walk on high places.
Zeph. 2:11 The Lord will be terrifying to them, for He will starve all the gods of the earth; and all the coastlands of the nations will bow down to Him, every one from his own place.
Zeph. 3:8-9 Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder. [Ed., Note that the purpose of God's fire and indignation is for purification, that is, “…though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.” (I Peter 4:6)]
Haggai 2:6-7 For thus says the Lord of hosts, "Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. And I will shake all the nations; and they will come with all the wealth of the nations; and I will fill this house with glory," says the Lord of hosts.
Haggai 2:21-22 I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. And I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the nations; and I will overthrow the chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, every one by the sword of another.
Zech 2:10-11 Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord. And many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.
Zech 3:1-4 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. And he spoke and said to those who were standing before him saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes."
Zech 4:6-7 Then he answered and said to me, "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord or hosts. 'What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"
Zech 8:12-13 And I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these things. And it will come about that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you that you may become a blessing. Do not fear. Let your hands be strong.
Zech 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; and His dominion will be from sea to sea, and from the River [i.e., the Euphrates] to the ends of the earth.
Zech 14:8-9 And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be one, and His name one. [some trans. Add, "the only one".]
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.
New Testament Passages
Mt. 10:29,30 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs on your head are numbered. (NIV)
Mt. 11:25-27 And no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Mt. 13:11 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Mt. 15:13 Every plant which my heavenly Father did not plant shall be rooted up.
Mt. 18:14 Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
Mt. 19:11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it has been given. (NIV)
19:26 With man this [salvation] is impossible, but with God all things are possible. (NIV)
Mt. 20:23 This is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.
Mt. 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Mt. 24:22 But for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short.
Mt. 26:54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way? (NIV)
Mk. 4:10-12 To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.… lest they return again and be forgiven.
Mk. 13:20 But for the sake of the elect whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Lk. 1:20 And behold, you shall be silent and unable to speak until the day when these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which shall be fulfilled in their proper time.”
Lk. 8:10 To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
Lk. 10:21-22 No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Lk. 18:26,27 Those who heard this asked, ”Who then can be saved?” Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” (NIV)
Lk. 20:38 For all live to Him.
Jn. 1:12-13 Who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of [the will of] God.
Jn. 3:27 A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.
Jn. 5:21 The Son also gives life to whom He wishes [Greek: wills]
Jn. 5:25 The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall live.
Jn. 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me.
Jn. 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Jn. 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
Jn. 6:65 For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.
Jn. 8:36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
Jn. 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Jn. 10:16 I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd.
Jn. 10:27-28 And I give eternal life to them [my sheep], and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
Jn. 11:43 He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth." He who had died came forth....
Jn. 12:32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself.
Jn. 12:39-40 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
Jn. 13:18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen.
Jn. 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain.
Jn 15:19 But because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Jn. 17:2 Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life.
Jn. 17:6 I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world.
Jn. 17:9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
Jn. 19:11 You would have no authority over me, unless it had been given you from above.
Acts 1:2 After he had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:16 Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David…
Acts 2:23 This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and the foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men....
Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.
Acts 3:26 ...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Acts 4:27,28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.
Acts 5:31 He is the One whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. [Ed. He grants the repentance as well as the forgiveness.]
Acts 9:15 For he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine to bear My name before the Gentiles....
Acts 10:40-41 God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God.
Acts 11:18 God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. [Ed., Again, repentance is granted by God.]
Acts 13:48 And as many as had been appointed [ordained] to eternal life believed.
Acts 15:7 In the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth [Peter’s] the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Acts 15:9 And He made no distinction between us [Jews] and them [Gentiles], cleansing their hearts by faith. [Ed., God cleanses the heart, and He does so by granting us faith.]
Acts 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.
Acts 16:14 And the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Acts 17:26-28 And He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation...for in Him we live and move and are.
Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent.
Acts 18:27 On arriving, he [Paul] was a great help to those who by grace had believed. (NIV) [Ed.. No one can believe apart from receiving God’s sovereign grace.]
Acts 22:10 Arise and go on into Damascus; and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.
Acts 22:14 The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear an utterance from His mouth.
Rom. 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Rom. 3:23-24 For all have sinned and fall short [Greek present tense: are sinning and falling short] of the glory of God, being justified [Greek present passive tense] as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
E Rom. 4:17 Even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
Rom. 4:21 And being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform.
Rom. 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom. 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom. 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one [Adam] the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom. 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom. 5:19 For as through the one man's [Adam's] disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom. 5:20 And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
Rom. 5:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom. 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom. 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren;
P,E Rom. 8:30 And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom. 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us who is against us?
Rom. 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies.
Rom. 9:11 For though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls...
E Rom. 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
E Rom. 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?
P Rom. 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
P,E Rom. 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
P Rom. 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
P,E Rom. 9:23 In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
E Rom. 9:24 Even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
E Rom. 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved.
Rom. 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice [Lit., God's choice of grace.]
Rom. 11:26 And thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, and He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
Rom. 11:27 "And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."
E Rom. 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
E Rom. 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom. 11:32 For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Rom. 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways!
Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
E 1 Cor. 1:1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God....
E 1 Cor. 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise….that no man should boast before God.
E 1 Cor. 1:30 But by His doing (Lit., of Him) you are in Christ Jesus....
E 1 Cor. 4:7 For who regards you as superior? And what do you have that you did not receive?
1 Cor. 9: 16-17 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
1 Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1 Cor. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
2 Cor. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God....
2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died.
E 2 Cor. 5:17-19 Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come. Now all these things are from God who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed (Lit., placed in us) the word of reconciliation.
2 Cor. 7:9 For you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, in order that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
2 Cor. 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but sorrow of the world produces death.
2 Cor. 8:5 But they [the saints in Macedonia] first gave them
elves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.
Gal. 1:4 Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.
P,E Gal. 1:15-16 But when He who had set me apart from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me....
P Gal. 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, ”All the nations shall be blessed in you.”
E Gal. 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God.
Gal. 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free....
E Eph. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God....
P,E Eph. 1:4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world....
Eph. 1:5-6 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace....
Eph. 1:9-10 And He made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ to put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment–to bring all things in heaven and on earth together [the summing up of all things, NAS] under one head, even Christ. [NIV]
P Eph. 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
Eph. 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that [faith] not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Eph. 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose [Lit., purpose of the ages] which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Eph. 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
Phil. 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Phil. 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.
P Phil. 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [See Isaiah 45:22-23 for original context!]
Phil. 2:12-13 Work out [Strong’s concordance: effect or engage in] your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Phil. 3:21 Who will transform our lowly body into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
E Col. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God....
Col. 1:13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son of His love.
Col. 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of [Greek, protokos: prior to and sovereign over] all creation.
Col. 1:16-18 For in Him all things were created....all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together....so that He Himself might come to have first place [i.e., pre-eminence] in all things.
Col. 1:19-20 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Col. 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.
Col. 3:11 Christ is all, and in all.
Col. 3:12 And so, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness…
E 1 Thess. 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
P 1 Thess. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
P,E 1 Thess. 5:24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
2 Thess. 2:13 God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
E 1 Tim. 1:1 Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the command of God our Savior....
1 Tim. 1:13-14 Even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. And yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. [Ed., If the prerequisite for mercy is ignorance and unbelief, then who will fail to qualify? Also, note that both faith and love are found only in Christ. Not until we find Christ, or more correctly, only when He finds us, do we find faith and real love.]
1 Tim. 2:4 Who desires [who will have, KJV] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
E 1 Tim. 4:10 For it is this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially [Greek, malista: most of all] of believers.
2 Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God....
P,E 2 Tim. 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.
2 Tim. 2:25,26 With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses [Ed., see the Prodigal Son story, lit. “he came to himself” (Luke 15:17)] and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
P 2 Tim. 4:18 The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God....
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy....
Heb. 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing that is not subject to Him.
Heb. 2:9 That by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.
Heb. 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
P,E Heb. 6:17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath.
P Heb. 8:8-12 "Behold days are coming", says the Lord, "when I will effect a new covenant....I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people....for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." [Ed., The new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah]
Heb. 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the completion of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb. 12:2 Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…
James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures.
James 2:13 Mercy triumphs over judgment.
E 1 Peter 1:1 Peter...to those...who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....
P, E 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.
1 Peter1:20-21 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God.
E 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
E 1 Peter 3:9 For you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1 Peter 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead [i.e., the disobedient spirits in prison from the days of Noah (Pet 3:18-20)], that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
P, E 1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered for a little, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
1 Peter 5:12 I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you;
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not purposing [Greek, boulema: resolving (Ed., as opposed to wishing or desiring)] for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
E Jude 1:1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy....
Rev. 1:17,18 I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead , and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev. 5:13 And every created thing [Greek: every creature] which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying [i.e., worshiping], "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
P, E Rev. 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him [the beast], every one whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.
P Rev. 15:3-4 Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? [Ed., The answer implied is “none.”] For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."
P,E Rev. 17:14 And those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.
P Rev. 17:17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled.
Rev. 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
Cole, yes! Awesome scrptures? Are you or were you ever a Calvinist?
Richard,
I use to be a hardcore calvinist or reformer.
I guess you could say that I'm recovering from from the insane God of calvinism.
Cole - Thanks for doing that! It was awesome! Obviously, if a person lives for God then of course His will will be done by them. However, not all people do. The people that do not live and love by His will are going to do what ever their flesh wants, not what God wants.
For some reason people need something or someone to blame their own or others problems on. I see very few people who take responsibilty for anything in their lives. Everything has to be someone or somethings fault. Accountability is almost dead. Ugh! It drives me nuts! This "good" person died from Cancer...must be Gods fault. How horrible. Let's not look at the polutants that we put into our bodies and into the air. I am sure that has nothing to do with it. Choosing to focus on a thought that all the bad in this world is Gods fault sure releases people from doing anything about it, doesn't it. Or, if you think he does not exist, blame it on those crazy people who DO believe. That way you can wash your hands of it all and shake your heads at us...
Richard, I don't think every chrisitan is evil. I think there are good people in there, just lie we have bad athetists.
My posting was about the majoirty of those in the relgion. I wasn't naming anyone is particular, but in my expereince you are a definate minority.
Heather, Heather, Heather.
Why do you say," I will never tell someone how to live their life, what is wrong or right. I choose not to judge. I am only Human and I have enough to deal with making my own decisions and mistakes."?
But then say:
"Hate does not come from God, hate comes from the enemy.... There is a battle being waged, Good against Evil, God vs. the devil."
And
"Cole - Not sure if you knew, but we are not in Heaven. God does not have control over all, as all do not follow Him."
And
"Obviously, if a person lives for God then of course His will will be done by them. However, not all people do. The people that do not live and love by His will are going to do what ever their flesh wants, not what God wants."
Sorry, but this sounds awfully judgemental and authoritain to me.
Oh, and I couldn't help but notice in your last response to me that you completely skipped my second point - the one relating to finding peace thru alternative deities. I can understand why you would want to avoid that issue given the lengths you have been going to to look like a moderate, tolerant christian.
As to your conversion story - sounds great. I'm happy for you.
I actually had a simular experience, only for me it was the Mother Goddess that entered into my life (this was years after I renounced christ). I had the whole ball of wax; burden lifted from my shoulders, sun shined brighter, life got easier, etc, etc.
Fortunately for me, Wicca doesn't have any restrictive doctrines, so I was able to freely question the reliability of my experience and stay fairly objective about it. (i.e. I have no idea whether or not this or any deity exists - but I love going to the sabbats!)
You, though, seem awful certain of your beliefs for one who "is only human".
You said, "Why do Christians do bad things? Maybe they aren't Christians. Just because you say you are something doesn't make you that something. And, last time I checked Christians are still human."
Ok, which is it? Do "true" christians never do bad things or are they just as human as everyone else?
And just to be clear, I'm not talking about telling fibs or calling names, I'm talking about murder, rape, child abuse, torture, slavery, corruption and all of the other crimes self proclaimed christians have committed.
Oh, and I just have to comment on your attempt at shifting the responsibility for evil off of god and onto humanity.
We're not the ones looking to avoid taking responsibility. We want to know why YOU aren't blaming god. After all, you believe in him. You think he created everything and deliberately put us all into the situations that we are in.
In my experience, christians tend to be the most irresponsible people I have known. They constantly avoid issues by claiming "it's god's will" or "its satan's doing". My sister (a born again christian) once got into an auto accident because she decided to let jesus drive for her. (And declared it a miracle that she didn't die.)
Christians are the ones who have no problem destroying the Earth (Hey god gave it to us - and besides, its already been tainted by sin)
They condone cruelty to animals (its not like they have a soul or something)
They spend millions to fight abortion but next to nothing to support abused and neglected children.
They deprive children of the right to decide for themselves what to believe in by indoctrinating them into their religion.
And I'm just scratching the surface.
You want to say that these aren't the things real christians do, then I'd like to know where your sense of responsibility is.
Heather,
Did you read all the scriptures I provided and how some of them teach that God hardens peoples hearts and creates evil thereby making him responsible for evil? When a baby gets raped God is ultimately the one responsible for it. He either sits back and allows it (when he could stop it) or he causes it himself. Either way this God is insane.
Isaiah 45:6,7 There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating calamity [Lit.,"ra", evil]. I am the Lord who does all these.
Tigg 13 - Okay, maybe I need to clarify something. I do not like stereotypes. I have never fit into stereotypes, as a woman, mother or a wife (much to the dismay of my husband). I have a mind and I use it. I do not want to be fit into the stereotype of a Christian either. That has been the most difficult part about my relationship with God. Not a problem with God, but with all those people that say, "well, as a Christian you must do this or not do this".
Oddly enough, just this morning, I was giving my oldest daughter a lecture about accepting responsibilty for your own actions. Even if you ask God, and feel that what you are doing is by His will, it is still a personal choice. Yes, I believe that the enemy puts ideas into your mind. Does that mean that it is the enemy's fault if I do it? No, it is my fault and mine alone. I make the ultimate decision of what I choose to do.
Some of your other comments spoke to the treatment of animals...I personally love my animals as much as my kids, (my kids think I love them more). I attempt to be as Earth conscious as possible, I live here too, and I plan to for quite awhile. Regarding abortion and abused children...both are wrong in my eyes.
The whole depriving the child of choice thing, I don't get that. I guess you may be referring to taking away a choice, lets say sex before marriage, by quoting the scriptures. I hope that my children choose not to have sex before marriage. I hope that it is a combination of their Christianity as well as their knowledge of the problems it can cause in a young persons life. Regardless, my children are educated about sex, safe sex, and where it stands with regards to being a Christian. They also understand that it is by Faith and Faith alone that God lives within you, not by works.
If some day my children decide they want to "not" be a Christian, that will be their decision. At this time, my husband is not a Christian...I don't know if he ever will ever be. I still love him though.
Oh, and about the "other" gods questions. I am sure that you realize that I would say that there is only one God. The God of the Bible. If you were my friend, you would still be my friend even though you put your faith in something else. All I can do is make you, my husband, people, aware that He is here for us if we want Him. That you don't have to be the stereotypical Christian to have a relationship with God.
I am tolerant. I want people to see that your definition of Christians does not fit everyone. I want to say that you think I am wrong and I think you are wrong, but that wording seems off, but I think you get what I mean, I hope.
Hi Heather.
I'd love to be your friend. And the fact that you say you're tolerant and responsible and animal friendly goes a long way toward building that friendship.
The problem is, I have prayed to other gods, worshipped idols and practiced witchcraft - all after I was exposed to your god's book and renounced christ.
If you really do think that there is a war going on between god and satan then I'm pretty much what the stereotypical enemy would look like.
And while you maintain that you are not a stereotypical christian you still sound very much like a lot of christians I have encountered.
You want to distinguish your self from all of those "other christians".
You want god to have 100% authority but 0% responsibility.
You want the bible to be infalible even if it means rationalizing, rewording or completely ignoring parts of it.
But mostly, you equate your beliefs with accepted facts and expect everybody to just assume that you must be right about them.
This isn't unique.
My referrence to christians not letting their children have choices had nothing to do sex education or anything like that. I think you must have realised this because you followed up with an acknowledgement that your kids were free to choose for themselves whether or not to believe in god.
But have you told them that christianity is just one set of beliefs? Have you given them access to, or permission to research other religions and spiritual paths?
(Remember, you're supposed to be tolerant.)
I guess what this boils down to (and why we keep talking past each other) is that you are trying to defend your own personal beliefs while I'm talking about christianity in general.
And what I guess I'm really trying to figure out is; why is it, if you are so different from other christians and you don't make the same mistakes that they do, then why aren't you taking our side against them?
I mean you're saying that it's possible to be a good person and still be a christian. We're saying that its possible to be a good person and not be a christian - so why bw a christian?
This, by the way, is why I asked you about why christians do bad things. I wanted to see if you were marginalized enough in your beliefs to at least comprehend why we seek to debunk christianity.
You still haven't fully addressed this.
You just keep switching back and forth responding with answers that are either steeped in your own personal beleifs (and therefore only relevant to you) or parrotted doctrinal claptrap that I've heard a dozen times before.
In short, if you think being christian is so good then why don't you want to like other christians? And if you aren't like other christians (and there's only one true path to salvation) then what makes you so sure that you actually are a christian?
Tigg 13 - There is only one way to salvation. Faith in God. End of story. That is my point. I don't want to be like other people. I want to be like Jesus. I sure as heck can't find Him in other people. I equate my belief by the Bible. How I interpret it is up to me.
My children were not raised from birth in a religious home. They choose to go to church. I have raised my children to be free-thinkers and independent. That being said, I won't say that I don't voice my opinions with regards to some religions that add to Gods word. I certainly wouldn't disown them or not allow them to educate themselves about what others believe. I want them to make their choices based on what they know and want, not by what I want.
I don't know why Christians do bad things. But that alone won't cause me to question my Faith in God. Like I have said, I have a personal relationship with God, that doesn't include all those other people.
I suppose you may be correct when you say my answers reflect my own beliefs, therefore they are only relevant to me. I guess that is the point I am trying to make. That my Faith should only be relevant to me. I don't want to answer or defend them, because I don't know what is truly in their heart.
Maybe it would make more sense to say that you are Debunking people, not the Christian Faith.
Hi Heather.
You said, "Maybe it would make more sense to say that you are Debunking people, not the Christian Faith."
I'm sorry if you think that this is a personal attack against you. But let's not forget that you invited yourself into this discussion.
And so long as faith can only reside within the minds of people, your statement really doesn't make much sense at all.
Now, I'm going to ask you again; if your stand is that you are different and unique in your beliefs from other christians and at least some of what they do is wrong, then why aren't you helping us by speaking out against them?
The only answer you've provided so far is that you want us to "know" that it is possible to actually have a relationship with your god and urge us to allow that relationship to take place.
But we don't believe that this god exists, Heather. How can we attempt to have a relationship with something that isn't there?
And, in the light of all the bad things that have been done by people who have claimed to follow this god, how can we be sure that,if we were to stop questioning and just have faith, we wouldn't wind up doing bad things ourselves?
If this isn't the same god that all the other christians are talking about, how are we to differentiate between them. They all talk about salvation and satan and the bible just like you do.
You want us to see that your experience has been a positive one and thus faith in christ works. But in doing this, you're not really asking us to have faith in god.
You're asking us to have faith in you.
Worse than that. Many of us have already tried that. She wants us to reject our own expereinces and once more march into that place because she thinks we might find what she found.
Under that logic I wouldn't follow you to a local restraunt let alone into a faifth.
Heather you said that "Maybe it would make more sense to say that you are Debunking people, not the Christian Faith."
Like trigg13 said, it is attacking faith through the people in which faith resides. Faith is, by its very nature and definition, irrational. I just did a quick search on the definition of faith and find two that are of interest:
1.Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence
Taking these two definitions together, and adding what i deem to know about the concept of faith already, it seems that faith is 'a confident belief in something where that confidence does not rest on logical proof or material eveidence'
Does this not seem irrational? Normal everyday beliefs are based on giving a positive credence value to a statement i.e. i am more than 50% sure of such and such based on the evidence readily available to me. The only evidence readily available to human beings is logical or material. Why on earth would someone hold a belief that they accept is under-evidenced.
Ok, so maybe people like to go with gut feelings or their sensabilities cloud their judgement to think its acceptable to beleive something when that belief is under-evidenced. Let and let live: let people have their own beleifs if it doesn't hurt anyone. Problem: religion does hurt people and it is the less fundamental religious middle class that provide a platform to prop up the more extreme fundamentalists.
If something is false but harms no-one then so be it if someone is happy beleiving it. But if a beleif is false and it does, at whatever level, instigate hurt in other human beings, then that beleif is not acceptable.
I anticipate that some may object that faith may describe beliefs based not on logical or material truths but on spiritual ones: spiritual evidence that outweighs the logical and material. But what is this spiritual evidence? How can we trust spiritual experiences? Surely if i was in a room and thought i saw a flying pink pig that no-one else could see, my first reaction is not to think that everyone else is mistaken but that i am; i would think, because what i am seeing (on one occasion which is not enough to base a strong belief) is out of the ordinary and defies the laws of everything i currently hold to know that i am hallucinating.
If i ever have a religious experience (actually i used to be religious and thought what i was experiencing was spiritual and divine) i will know (i now know of my feelings then) that it is more likely that the experience is not divine. The overwhelming presence of God christians claim to feel is common human chemical functions. When i hear certain pieces of music i may be moved, i may cry, i may be suddenly overwhelmingly happy. When i have a beleif that tells me there is hope against the backdrop of a brutal world and that tells me i am always loved and will never die my brain and body react in the same way as when i hear a moving piece of music. If a belief does not have to be true for someone to believe it then surely it does not have to be true for someone to feel the positive effects of that belief.
I am fighting a losing battle at this point. I am only subjecting myself, yet again, because I am too stubborn for my own good, and I want to state a few more things.
1. I pray to God that no one has Faith in me. That is bothersome. Faith should be put in God and God alone.
2. All types of people, believing in all sorts of things do bad things. I simply think it is unfair to place all of the bad things that happen on Christians.
I cannot judge. Well, I try really hard not to judge others. If I were to attempt to "speak out against them" as you implore me to, I feel as if I would be judging them. I also don't want to judge those that do not have Faith in God. I agree that you cannot have Faith in something that you do not believe exists. I understand that you have had your own experiences that have taken you to the place that you currently are. I do not feel that I am better than you because I have Faith in God and you do not. I suppose that the point I am trying to make is that being a Christian doesn't always happen the same way, look the same, or fall into the box it has been labeled. I would even attempt to assert that many of the negative feelings are most likely attributable(sp) to the people involved. Like a church, or a respected person involved with a church or such. If a person puts their Faith in churches or people, they will be disappointed, there will most likely be negative situations, in my opinion. Man can never live up to the expectations of God.
Like I said previously, it is hard to express what I want to in this manner. I am happy to say that in reading the postings of the majority on this blog my Faith has been made stronger. Thank you!!
You are welcome Heather!
(I think?)
May I say that I do appreciate your honesty and your integrity.
And you are right that christians should not be blamed for everything that is bad - just the things they are responsible for.
Total disagreement.
In my expereince chrisitians always try to make it seem good people do good things because they're chrisitian (What a fine christian boy).
When chrisitians do bad things, well they're just bad.
Fair? Not really. But add in the endless claims that athesim made Hitler, Mao, and Stalin (never mind 2 where beleivers and came from chrisitian homes) kill millions and throw it in my face enough and I think it gets fair.
If we're judged by all members of our lack of faifth then the flip has got to be fair.
BTW Heather; I openly admit I'm an sarcastic poster which could (and sometimes should) be taken as rude, it's not usually my intent. I'm not about to aplogize but I'm actively trying to offend, just make points in a way that amuses me.
Heather,
Forgive me, but, how exactly has reading this blog made your faith any stronger? I've seen this comment from a number of Christians who read these sorts if blogs, but I never understood it. Don't mistake this for an example of "but I'm completely correct so if there's someone who doesn't agree with me then there's a problem with them," it's just a little confusing. These guys offer pretty intense, reasoned arguments against the priciples and bedrock of Christianity, and all you can say is "Seeing people provide evidence against my faith just makes me believe in it more"?
Has it just given you more to try to rationalize?
Bahramthered - Are you saying that people will always judge groups by the bad eggs and I should just accept that? If that is what you mean, I guess I understand that. The only thing that disturbs me is that those "bad eggs" may keep people from knowing Jesus.
Also, I am not why you thought I was looking for an apologize. I love a good discussion/argument. :) Just ask my husband. I highly expect that the people responding to my comments will not be agreeing with me, which doesn't bother me in the least, rude or not rude. No worries!!
Philip - I guess I will try to explain what I mean by that comment of having a stronger faith. If I had only a belief and no Faith in God and his son Jesus, I imagine that the arguments presented here would shake that belief. I may even begin to wonder about my belief. However I have Faith in God, I have Faith that Jesus was born and died on the cross and that he lived again...all for me and others like me. Amazing. I have Faith in something I can not see or touch, and yet reading the arguments makes me even more anxious to let people know that they can know God, not to discount Him. I guess on a personal level, when I read these things and I am not swayed in my Faith, it is just an awesome thing to me...I hope that helps...
Hey Heather!
(I thought you were leaving this thread.)
I can understand why you would be anxious to tell people about your god. If I had the legs kicked out from under my beliefs and had nothing to cling to but my faith I'd be a little scared myself.
So you just keep hanging in there with your eyes closed muttering the mantra of your personal apologetics, safe and secure in the knowledge that, as long as you never question your faith you never have to risk giving it up.
Have a nice day.
Tigg - Any Christian how says they haven't had doubts is lying. However, working through those situations makes your Faith that much stronger.
I don't feel as if my "legs have been kicked out from under me" when reading any of the arguments presented here. In fact, in my opinion, most of the posts are generalized statements about people, not God.
I sense that your wishing me a nice day may have been sarcastic...but I will thank you anyway and wish you the same.
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