Coming This Fall, "The Exodus Conspiracy" -- Dr. Lennart Moller resurrects Ron Wyatt's photograph of a gilded chariot wheel


Ron Wyatt’s photo of a “gilded chariot wheel” allegedly from the Egyptian army that chased the Hebrews as they fled during the Exodus.

An email has begun proliferating this year titled, “The Red Sea Crossing,” or, “Parting of the Red Sea,” or, “Chariot Wheels Found in Red Sea,” and it is being passed around so much with so little investigation that Snopes.com has begun a page on the email and its claims. I suspect that the email is part of an advertising campaign for a film due out in Fall 2008, starring a creationist named Dr. Lennart Moller (not an archeologist, but a biologist) and titled, “The Exodus Conspiracy

A previous film made for TV by the same company has already popularized the alleged “golden/gilded chariot wheel” that the late Ron Wyatt (another non-archeologist) “discovered in the Red Sea," where "Pharaoh's" chariots were allegedly swallowed up when two huge walls of water slammed together on either sides of them. (See the Bible's Exodus tale.)

The made for TV film also featured Dr. Lennart Moller and was titled, “The Exodus Revealed” and one portion of it featured not the actual “gilded wheel” photographed by Wyatt but a digital “recreation” of it

Announcer: “While most of the possible artifacts found off the coast of Nuweiba are covered with coral, one significant discovery was not.”

Dr. Lennart Moller: “There is one find at the Nuweiba location that is of great interest, and that is the gilded wheel. [digital ‘recreation’ appears on screen, based on photo taken by Ron Wyatt] It is a wooden basic structure of the wheel and it is covered with gold or electrum, a mixture of silver and gold, and corals have not been able to grow on it. [really? why not? see questions below] It’s been very well preserved, although it’s very fragile. It seems like the wooden content has been dissolved. So I mean you could break it if you tried to remove it.”

Announcer: “After its discovery the fragile wheel-shaped veneer was photographed, then left in place on the sea floor. Later analysis revealed that its dimensions and design resembled four-spoked chariot wheels painted on an 18th Dynasty tomb wall near the biblical date of the Exodus.”

Note that Moller does not say he discovered this “gilded wheel,” nor that he saw it, photographed it, nor touched it. There is no undersea footage of the “gilded wheel” in the film but merely a digital “reconstruction” of a photograph taken by Wyatt in the 1970s. But note that although almost no coral is shown touching this bright shiny wheel, based on Wyatt's photo, still there are plenty of thick corals growing on one another and seen all over the actual seabed of the Red Sea as shown in the film. Neither does Wyatt's original photo provide clear evidence as to whether the small piece of coral seen on the wheel simply was placed there or not, it doesn’t seem particularly well attached, not compared with the vast conglomerations of corals in the general area. And contra a statement made by Dr. Moller in the film, there does not appear to be any reason why coral should not be able to grow on an object made of gold, silver or a mixture of both, as any archeologist can demonstrate who has dug up objects made of all sorts of ancient precious metals from the sea with coral growing on them.

Even a Christian on the web has pointed out:

“Can coral grow on gold? Yes. Coral is not a plant, it is an animal, and it does not get its nutrients from the soil or rock it grows on. Instead, it eats zooplankton and other small marine bugs, and it gets its calcium, amino acids, etc. from the surrounding sea water. To structurally support themselves, corals grow next to each other and harden together, forming reefs. Thus they could grow on anything!! It doesn't matter. Coral also uses photosynthesis to make sugars out of sunlight. The only way they wouldn't grow on gold is if it were toxic to coral. I do not think this is the case, since gold has little or no affinity for binding oxygen, carbon, or nitrogen. The only thing it really has an affinity for is sulfur. So if sulfur is necessary for coral to live, then perhaps.... The only thing that my pharmacology book says gold inhibits is mycobacterium tuberculosis, nothing else. Besides the point, however, I'm all for historical evidence of the Bible, but this guy's argument is so ridiculously flawed that it's an embarrassment to believers.”

Also, after 3,500 years of water flowing into the Red Sea and carrying sand and silt along with it, that’s the deepest that such a wheel has become buried? It looks like it’s barely beneath the sand. Why is this “gilded wheel” not covered by several feet of silt and sand after 3,500 years?

Neither do Wyatt’s and Moller’s separate tales add up concerning such a gilded wheel. On the one hand Wyatt claimed in the 1970s to have photographed such a wheel and then “presented it” to Nassif Mohammed Hassan who worked at the Cairo museum whom Wyatt has on tape saying that it “resembled an ancient Egyptian chariot wheel.” (However what studies did Hassan made of the wheel if any? Did he actually handle it? What evidence is there that Hassan was “presented with” anything more than just a photograph of the wheel?) Then Hassan died a few years later. So he’s no longer available for questioning. Now compare Moller’s story in his video which speaks about the “gilded chariot wheel” as if it were extremely fragile, made of 3,500 year old “wood covered with gold or electrum, a mixture of silver and gold. And it’s very fragile. It seems like the wooden content has been dissolved. So you could break it if you tried to remove it,” and the announcer described it as nothing more than a “fragile wheel-shaped veneer.” So if Moller is right, how did Wyatt “remove” such a "fragile wheel-shaped veneer" and “present” it to the person at the museum without breaking it?*

*Maybe Moller interprets Wyatt’s story as merely the story of a photograph “presented” to Hassan, not “the wheel” itself?

Even the few photographs taken by Wyatt are not explicitly stated to be of just one wheel or of two different gilded chariot wheels. But even if there was one 3,500 year old gilded wheel solid enough to be lifted out of the sea and presented to Hassan, and a second gilded wheel in the Red Sea yet undiscovered and too fragile to excavate -- then in either case God’s providence or chance seems to have made it impossible to investigate either “wheel” story via direct investigation of the alleged “wheels,” nor via interviewing Wyatt or Hassan.

In fact there is no evidence other than Wyatt's photograph of how large the alleged "gilded wheel" was, and so it could have been smaller than a chariot wheel because it is difficult to judge an objects size in a photograph unless you place something right next to the object like a yardstick, coin, or other object of known size. Also how do we know for sure that the object was made of gold? It might have been made merely of shiny brass and be a far younger object that recently was tossed into the water, so young that it lay near the surface, was still shiny enough to catch Wyatt's eye, and also young enough such that coral had not had time to cement itself on it. (See the other modern day wheel shaped objects pictured further below.)

Below are links to another portion of the made-for-TV-film that features footage of coral formations and focuses only on those that one might imagine might have been formed around decaying chariot wheels:
Mt. Sinai, Moses & the Exodus - Part 8 of 10

Even in a conservative Christian news source like Worldnetdaily.com, Wyatt's own wife is reported as urging "caution" before jumping to conclusions, and admits a lot of coral looks like “wheels” or other alleged chariot parts. The article, titled, “Pharaoh’s chariots found in Red Sea?” also admits that the one “golden chariot wheel” that Wyatt allegedly discovered cannot be found anywhere.

SEVEN Criticisms of Wyatt’s Claim that he discovered and photographed a 3,500 year old “Egyptian Chariot Wheel”

1) While the image could be better, the above photo doesn’t show any of the type of segmenting that the chariot in the earlier museum photo exhibits. Nor does it seem to have the types of joins shown in drawings of Eqyptian chariot wheels. Someone else has already mentioned that the hub of the ocean “wheel” is greatly different then the one in the museum. The style seems more modern and looks as if the edges are milled to be beveled.

2) As to the coral formations. I don’t think anyone has brought up that coral often is spherical and or radial. I haven’t seen any convincing arguments that the formations aren’t natural. Keep in mind that different types of coral grow on top of each other. So given enough coral, time, and space all sorts of shapes are possible.

3) Cnidarians are simple, radially symmetrical, animals. Radial symmetry means that the body is a hub, like a bicycle wheel, and tentacles are spokes coming out of it.

4) I’m at a loss as to how a Saudi Law prevents anyone on the Egypt side of the sea from bringing up objects [am I missing something here?]. If they do not bring up items out of respect/fear for Saudi Law, then how did they bring up the bone?

5) Even if it turns out that the formations aren’t natural it doesn’t mean they’re chariot wheels. There is certainly more than one ship that has been lost in the Red Sea. Google: shipwreck “red sea” 5,790 matches.

6) The film features an examination of the “spokes” of various wheel-shaped coral formations and the discovery of positive metal detector readings and rust being associated with the coral. But 1446 BC is too early for extensive use of iron and Egyptian chariots didn't use much metal. The spokes were wooden. Small amounts of iron had been available to the Egyptians for a long time but we should not be seeing much, if any, at an 18th Dynasty site. We really do need better evidence for the Exodus than counting the number of spokes a coral formation appears to have. Iron Age I starts at 1200 BCE See also this and this about thehistory of metal usage. “Iron was first employed as a technology of war about 1300 B.C. by the Hittites. Within a hundred years the secret of iron making and cold forging had spread at least to Palestine and Egypt and, perhaps, to Mesopotamia as well.”

7) Comparison of Wyatt's golden chariot wheel...

...with some modern day objects found on ships and other machines.



REVIEW OF DR. MOLLER’S BOOK, THE EXODUS CASE, which was published in 2002 and inspired the made-for-TV-film, and the move to be released Fall 2008:

Lennart Moller specializes in the earth hazards of air pollutants and the damage to DNA that they cause. Since 2001, he has been a professor of environmental medicine in the department of bioscience at Karolinska Institutet, one of Europe's largest medical universities and Sweden's main center for medical training and research. Beside his academic duties, Moller is an active member of Evangeliska Fosterlands-Stiftelsen, founded in 1856, a missionary organization within the Church of Sweden. He has edited and authored books on ethics and Gospel exegesis and recently a volume on biblical archaeology, The Exodus Case.

This book is the fruit of extensive travels in the Near East and Egypt. Its stated main purpose is to test a hypothesis: that the biblical texts of Genesis 11:27 through Exodus 40:38 are historically correct. A secondary purpose is to evaluate and expand upon the works of the late Ron Wyatt (1933-1999)... There are disturbing signs already in the hook's introduction. First, it is naive to judge these long texts, preserved through thousands of years of oral and written traditions, as either true or false in their entirety. Academic historians evaluate discrete factual statements, not entire books at one go. But Moller emphasizes that he is neither a theologian, a historian, nor an archaeologist. In fact, he underlines that he does not know what these disciplines believe regarding the questions he takes on. Moller feels that he can thereby offer a fresh perspective.

Then there are the references to Ron Wyatt. If ever there was a true native of Daniken Laird, it was Wyatt. His writings on biblical archaeology are such extreme flights of fancy that even many creationist debaters dismiss them as wild imaginings.

While ostensibly scientific, Moller's perspective is at the same time explicitly antirational (p. 15). We should not be too sure of ourselves and our powers of reasoning. Only God is perfect, says Moller, and humankind is frail and weak...

Moller sets out on his biblical trek through time and space from Abraham in Ur to Moses on Mount Sinai.. He searches intensively for anything that fits with it. The idea that the selected texts are historically true is not a hypothesis for Moller, it is the basic axiom of his investigation. To the extent that he takes his pseudo-Popperian philosophy of science seriously at all, Moller appears to feel that the task of disproving the hypothesis is the reader's job, not his.

Moller stomps in brandishing revealed truth... The book interfoliates a Bible summary with absolutely vertiginous speculations in archaeology, history, geology, and onomastics (the study of the origins and forms of words). Gomorrah was located on the plain between the hilltop stronghold of Masada and the Dead Sea. The reason that there is now only a gypsum formation to be seen there is that the wicked city was built of limestone and destroyed in a rain of burning sulphur: limestone + sulphur = gypsum! Joseph, son of Jacob, is identical with Imhotep, the architect of the Stepped Pyramid at Saqqara. This identification moves the Third Dynasty a thousand years forward in time from its accepted date. This does not appear to trouble Moller, as he feels that the dynastic chronology of Egypt contains serious uncertainties. Moses is identical with Pharaoh Tutmosis II, as indicated by, among other things, the fact that the Pharaoh is depicted with a hooked nose, suggesting a Hebrew heritage! And so on. Wherever Moller goes, what he sees turns out to be relevant to his search. He finally finds Mount Sinai...

AUTHOR OF THE ABOVE REVIEW: Martin Rundkvist, review, is an archaeologist specializing in the pre- and protohistory of Scandinavia. He is a member of the board of the Swedish skeptic organization, Vetenskap och Folkbildning, and co-editor of the association's quarterly, Folkvett. He lives in the suburbs of Stockholm, Sweden, 400 meters from a Viking-period cemetery.

~~~~~

DETAILED DOCUMENTATION OF WYATT'S QUESTIONABLE AND FRAUDULENT CLAIMS AND ACTIVITIES

Wyatt Archaeological Research – Fraud Documentation

Ron Wyatt's archeological claims

Ron Wyatts supernatural claims

Who's Who in the World of Ron Wyatt?

A Review of The Exodus Revealed
Summary: The Exodus Revealed video, directed by Lad Allen and funded by Discovery (Institute?) Media Productions, is based on The Exodus Case book by Lennart Moller, which is based on the "discoveries" of Ron Wyatt. Both the video and the book include photos of a gold wheel supposedly found in the Gulf of Aqaba, presented as proof that the Bible's Red Sea crossing story is true. But a TV producer's wife "was told by one of Ron Wyatt's sons that the chariot wheels that Ron supposedly discovered in the Gulf of Aqaba were planted there by Ron." Also, John Baumgardner, who is a Christian and initially believed Wyatt and inspected Wyatt's Noah's ark "discovery", later wrote that "I am almost 100% certain that Ron 'planted' them [rivets on the Ark]." Despite this and much more evidence that Ron Wyatt was a crazy liar, both Lennart Moller and Lad Allen were insidiously dishonest in promoting Wyatt's "findings" without disclosing Wyatt's history of fraud. [See the link below for more on Wyatt, much more.]

(I know the fellow who wrote the investigative review above, and even met some of relatives who live in Greenville, S.C. The family was home-schooled and taught young-earth creationist arguments. Two or three of the sisters attended Bob Jones University. Today half of the author's siblings have left the fold.)

WYATT ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESEARCH: TOO "GOOD" TO BE TRUE? YES!

Letter from Joe Zias on the “discoveries of Ron Wyatt,” including mention of the alleged chariot wheel (Zias is Curator of Anthropology/Archaeology, Israel Antiquities Authority, POB 586, Jerusalem, Tel. 972-2-292624)

Lastly, I exchanged a few emails with Pinkowski who runs the Wyatt museum, and who informed me that, "In the 22 years that Ron Wyatt performed this wonderful work for the Lord, he always maintained a very humble personality. It would have been very easy for him to become proud or boastful, but Ron did not do that. Both Moses and Ron Wyatt were extremely humble men. When asked "why" he was chosen to do this work, Ron replied: 'If 10 different people found 10 different major archaeological finds, people could say, 'Well, they were lucky, or smart, etc.,' but for one person to find all of these things is not humanly possible. Not even the most brilliant and celebrated. But God uses 'The simple things to confound the wise.' In choosing a simple, average person, He leaves no room for doubt as to 'who' is actually doing these things. Perhaps He chose me because I was willing -- I really don't know. But I can say that there is no one on earth who could be more grateful than I to be allowed to work with these things.'"

What faith Pinkowski has in the alleged authenticity of every one of Wyatt’s alleged “discoveries,” none of which have ever been verified by legitimate archeologists. Wyatt always seemed to get a glimpse of something and then it promptly vanishes, like the gilded wheel, or the Phoenician style column found on the Saudi coastline and which contained in Phoenician letters (Archaic Hebrew) the words: Mizraim (Egypt ); Solomon; Edom; death; Pharaoh; Moses; and Yahweh; or “the Blood of Christ” on the “Judgment Seat” beneath the Temple site in Jerusalem which only Wyatt saw. Other evidence/claims of Wyatt likewise vanish after closer examination. Even those who at first supported his claims to have found Noah’s ark no longer believed him after examining the evidence at the site further, including young-earth creationists belonging to major young-earth organizations.

THE ABOVE QUOTATIONS ARRANGED AND EDITED BY EDWARD T. BABINSKI

43 comments:

John W. Loftus said...

Ed, thanks so much for this research!

zilch said...

I'll second John's thanks, Ed. But it's a sad commentary on the gullibility of some believers that this sort of nonsense needs to be debunked at all.

Steven Bently said...

Was that a one-wheeled chariot? Where's the drivers coach? Heaven forbid one of those wheels should fall off a ship mid-voyage. An instant miracle is born.

Rotten Arsenal said...

I agree zilch, but of course, if they weren't gullible to begin with, they most likely wouldn't be "believers" at all.

Trou said...

There are many legitimate questions that need to be answered. This much seems obvious to us and should be obvious to Christians also. Why is this wheel not buried under 3300 years worth of sediment? Where's the remainder of the chariot? Where are the hundreds of other artifacts and war machinery associated with this event? Why couldn't this be researched at the time or at this time? Too many questions that they have left unanswered.
The biggest one I have is that the Red Sea is not the sea that is written about in Genesis. It was the Sea of Reeds. Totally different and probably of Egyptian mythological origin. This “lake of reeds” is written about in the Pyramid texts and the book of the Dead.
These questions lead to more questions and thus learning and discovery happen. When you go at a topic with the answer already decided upon then you see no reason to question. Any old proof will do, even if poorly fabricated.

the agnostic rationalist said...

That is indeed a lot of research ! Thanks for doing it and putting it out here for us.

mikespeir said...

We don't even know for sure where the Exodus crossing is supposed to have taken place. Furthermore, the Egyptians controlled the whole area for a very long time. I think it would hardly be surprising to find an Egyptian chariot wheel out there, even if that's what it really is. To then take the kind of leap required to turn this found wheel into one lost during the Exodus crossing would require more gall than I could muster.

Carbon Based said...

One thing I’ve always wondered is why doesn’t genesis mention a name for any of the Egyptian pharaohs? They just call them pharaoh they had names no? Also why is there no corroborating Egyptian evidence for a large number of slaves leaving Egypt?

kb9aln said...

I am no expert in antiquities, but have seen a lot of machinery, new and old. This does not look to be any kind of old chariot wheel.

The hub looks too small in proportion to the wheel circumference to be 3500 years old. The center hole does not look to be something that would work with an axle. Rather it looks like it would be pressed onto a shaft and move with a shaft.

Most very old machinery was oversized due to the fact that the builders were not capable of precisely machining something small. Also in this case, it is unlikely that they used bearings and relied on an oversized axle to deal with friction and resulting wear. If they used any kind of bearing in a real chariot wheel, it would have been large as well.

I did a Google image search for chariot wheels and none of them resembled this specimen. All had markedly larger hubs, and more spokes (except for the multiple results of this fake wheel). Here's one from Egypt, circa 1400 BC:
Link

Notice the large hub and large center hole for the axle. Nothing like that is shown in the supposed Exodus chariot wheel.

The supposed Exodus wheel has a distinctly modern look about it. Can't say for sure from the picture, but it looks to be cast. And it looks rather like a V-Belt pulley.

Judging from the other stuff I have read about this guy, I just don't beleive it.

Kyle P. said...

I posted something mildly humorous under the comments of the video you posted, Ed, the one from youtube. Someone said, "I don't need fancy scientific stuff to tell me god is real ... blah blah blah ... I feel him personally, blah blah blah."

My comment was, "Muslims, Hindus, and Alien Abductees feel the same thing! You are not alone!"

kb9aln said...

Ahh, Shoot.

I checked the link after submitting the comment, and it didn't work for me. Try this one.

If that doesn't do it, just enter "chariot wheel" into the SSPL site's search box and you will find it shortly.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Trou said...

"Also why is there no corroborating Egyptian evidence for a large number of slaves leaving Egypt?"

There is no evidence of this and I don't think there is evidence of a vast number of slaves ever living in Egypt, either. There is, however, evidence of an exodus of sorts at about the right time and deported to the right place. These servants of pharaoh (as all subjects of the pharaoh were servants even if they were of high enough status to have servants themselves) were the Atenists (the first monotheists) who were deported to Canaan which was a province of Egypt at the time. I'm writing an article which I'm hoping to submit for posting soon. I will outline the case for how an Egyptian historical event could have been twisted into the deliverance of a chosen people. What a mess that has caused us all.

Badger3k said...

I always wondered how a "gold and electrum" covered chariot wheel was actually supposed to work. I suppose that the Pharoah in question (the one that has no records recording any of this "history", naturally) had his chariot carried by slaves, so that the wheels would not touch the ground.

Actually, when you think about it, even if there were some explanation for the Red Sea waters emptying out and leaving a trail to the Saudi side, the ground would certainly have been too soft for anything to go very far, I would imagine. I leave out the supernatural, since of course YHVH would have made the ground solid enough to walk on, or for chariots to roll over.

DingoDave said...

How dare you cast dispersions on Ron Wyatt's credibility.
Kent Hovind believes in him and that's good enough for me!
Oh, wait a minute...Kent Hovind is currently serving a 10 year prison sentence for tax fraud, I almost forgot.
On second thoughts...

Drow Ranger said...

Kent Hovind and Ron Wyatt are both disgraces.

There is no evidence of this and I don't think there is evidence of a vast number of slaves ever living in Egypt, either. There is, however, evidence of an exodus of sorts at about the right time and deported to the right place. These servants of pharaoh (as all subjects of the pharaoh were servants even if they were of high enough status to have servants themselves) were the Atenists (the first monotheists) who were deported to Canaan which was a province of Egypt at the time. I'm writing an article which I'm hoping to submit for posting soon. I will outline the case for how an Egyptian historical event could have been twisted into the deliverance of a chosen people. What a mess that has caused us all.

Well when you consider that Egyptian timelines have been royally messed, no wonder you can't find evidence for it. You're looking in the wrong time period. A corrected timeline, for instance, would put the Pharoah of Joseph as Sesostris I. This makes perfect sense, given what I learned about the Pharaohs when studying about Egypt (and having seen an exhibit at the museum). The Hyksos were not the Israelites, as some have posited, but rather the Amalekites, who were able to come in after the death of the Pharaoh of the Exodus--who was most likely Neferhotep I, given the circumstances. The destruction of the Egyptian Army in the Red Sea would have GG'ed their chances of staving off an Amalekite Invasion.

It is quite significant that Neferhotep’s son, Wahneferhotep, did not succeed his father on the throne. Instead, Neferhotep I was succeeded by his brother Sobkhotpe IV ‘who occupied the throne which his brother had recently vacated.’21 To this day, historians are unable to pinpoint the reason why the son of Neferhotep I did not succeed him...Another piece of very interesting circumstantial evidence is the sudden departure of Kahun’s inhabitants. Dr Rosalie David writes:

It is evident that the completion of the king’s pyramid was not the reason why Kahun’s inhabitants eventually deserted the town, abandoning their tools and other possessions in the shops and houses …The quantity, range, and type of articles of everyday use which were left behind in the houses may suggest that the departure was sudden and unpremeditated.22

The evidence appears to confirm Exodus 12:33 which states, ‘And the Egyptians urged the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste…’

But what happened to the mighty Egyptian army? According to the Bible, Pharaoh pursued the fleeing Israelites with his army as they miraculously crossed the Red Sea. However, the Egyptian army ended up at the bottom of the Red Sea (Exodus 14:28). It is no coincidence that the mummy of Neferhotep I has never been found.


http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/4857

DingoDave said...

Drow Ranger wrote:
"Kent Hovind and Ron Wyatt are both disgraces."

You describe Kent Hovind, and Ron Wyatt as being disgraces, yet you quote 'Creation on the Web' as a source of reliable historical information? (:O

"The irony is strong in this one Obi-wan!"

Moses said...

Every time I see this picture I see modern bronze pulley that recently fell off a fishing boat. Not golden chariot wheel from 1600BC.

Trou said...

Drow ranger,
You're looking in the wrong time period. You might be able to find something that sounds like it might fit at first glance but you would have to say then that the Bible was wrong. Count the ages of the patriarchs and the lengths of the sojourn in Egypt and you don't get 1750 BC for the exodus.

Drow Ranger said...

Dingo Dan...errr Dave wrote:
Kent Hovind and Ron Wyatt are both disgraces."

You describe Kent Hovind, and Ron Wyatt as being disgraces, yet you quote 'Creation on the Web' as a source of reliable historical information? (:O

"The irony is strong in this one Obi-wan!"


The ignorance is strong with this one. They're very accurate. And they have qualifications, unlike those other two.

You wanna try proving how it's NOT reliable, mkay? Be prepared to be shown how you are wrong.

Drow Ranger said...

Nobody knows what this object is, but maybe someone should dredge it up and have a look at it to make sure.

Drow Ranger said...

Ummm Trou...
Drow ranger,
You're looking in the wrong time period. You might be able to find something that sounds like it might fit at first glance but you would have to say then that the Bible was wrong. Count the ages of the patriarchs and the lengths of the sojourn in Egypt and you don't get 1750 BC for the exodus.


You're assuming that 1750 BC is a correctly identified year in Egyptian Chronology (in relation to who was ruling at the time), which may in fact not be the case at all.

Shygetz said...

You're assuming that 1750 BC is a correctly identified year in Egyptian Chronology (in relation to who was ruling at the time), which may in fact not be the case at all.

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Egyptian chronology goes up to and includes contact with the Roman empire, whose chronology is not only verified but is the foundation of our current chronology. So, I would say the Egyptian chronology is fairly sound.

The ignorance is strong with this one. They're very accurate. And they have qualifications, unlike those other two.

You wanna try proving how it's NOT reliable, mkay? Be prepared to be shown how you are wrong.


Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! YECists qualified? YECists very accurate! Let's start with a question my 4-year old can answer--"About how old is the Earth?" My daughter says billions of years (although she doesn't really understand what billions of years means, I've found that most adults don't grasp the concept either). What does your creationontheweb site say...hmmmm...wow! They are only off by six orders of magnitude! For those of you not familiar with the scale, that is like saying the entire United States is 3.7 sq. miles in area. But hey, I guess that's accurate given a certain definition of the word "accurate".

YECism has been crushed many times before on this blog, by me and many others. Since you're new here, if you have new objections to make, maybe we need to start a new thread for the public flogging. If you want me to point out how it's not accurate, we can start with isotope ratio dating, geological stratification, fossils, ALL of the evidence for evolution, astronomy (look up at the sky and you'll see stars as they looked thousands to millions of years ago), botany (King Clone is almost 12,000 years old), heliology, archaeology (glue is almost 50,000 years old, but the earth is only 6,000 years old?), epidemeology, population genetics, etc., etc., etc. YECism is a perverse fantasy akin to believing in elves because you like Lord of the Rings so much. It's pathetic, and it's proponents are either abyssmally ignorant on the subject, willfully delusional, or deliberately deceitful (and often more than one--Lying for Jesus is old hat for the YEC crowd).

Drow Ranger said...

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Egyptian chronology goes up to and includes contact with the Roman empire, whose chronology is not only verified but is the foundation of our current chronology. So, I would say the Egyptian chronology is fairly sound.

It's BEFORE the Roman Empire that we're even talking about. The earlier you go back, the greater the chance that the timing is off. Sure, when you have the Roman Empire to compare and verify with, it's fine. Earlier than that, and it's more of a guessing game.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! YECists qualified? YECists very accurate! Let's start with a question my 4-year old can answer--"About how old is the Earth?" My daughter says billions of years (although she doesn't really understand what billions of years means, I've found that most adults don't grasp the concept either). What does your creationontheweb site say...hmmmm...wow! They are only off by six orders of magnitude! For those of you not familiar with the scale, that is like saying the entire United States is 3.7 sq. miles in area. But hey, I guess that's accurate given a certain definition of the word "accurate".

Oh wow. Guilt by association. You see something posted by YECs and assume they're listening to YECs. Nice job.

YECism has been crushed many times before on this blog, by me and many others. Since you're new here, if you have new objections to make, maybe we need to start a new thread for the public flogging. If you want me to point out how it's not accurate, we can start with isotope ratio dating, geological stratification, fossils, ALL of the evidence for evolution, astronomy (look up at the sky and you'll see stars as they looked thousands to millions of years ago), botany (King Clone is almost 12,000 years old), heliology, archaeology (glue is almost 50,000 years old, but the earth is only 6,000 years old?), epidemeology, population genetics, etc., etc., etc. YECism is a perverse fantasy akin to believing in elves because you like Lord of the Rings so much. It's pathetic, and it's proponents are either abyssmally ignorant on the subject, willfully delusional, or deliberately deceitful (and often more than one--Lying for Jesus is old hat for the YEC crowd).

LOL! Well if you've been dealing with scrubs before, no wonder it seemed so easy for you.

Yeah, let's go:

-radioisotope dating, yeah you really think this is solid, don't you? I'll tell you what I told Lee. How can Diamonds which are supposedly millions of years old even have Carbon 14 in them, when Carbon 14 is virtually undetectable mathematically speaking at a time period past 100,000 years? Care to explain that?

Geological Stratification: Umm it looks to me like the majority of those are layers laid down in the Flood. That's a valid alternate hypothesis.

Astronomy: Big bang has more holes than a pasta strainer, and there's valid alternatives to the reason for the Cosmic Microwave Background. Einstein's theory of relativity means that time can travel faster due to gravitational forces. So what passes out there COULD have been millions/billions of years while only 10,000 years passed here. Didn't you see that one episode of Star Trek Voyager with the rapidly spinning planet and the different time?

King Clone being 12,000 years old is not a big problem. It's probably closer to 10 than 12. It's not like they can get exact dates there. You are leaving something out of that mention of King Clone. It was not dated merely by ringcounting. By straightforward ring counting, they can't get ANY trees older than 9,000 years. Wonder why that is, hmmm?

Heliology, yeah, and while we're at it why don't we discuss the "faint young sun" paradox.

How do you date glue? :P Carbon 14? Well that's just great but you would have to assume that the proportions of C14 to C12 were the same as they are today in order to get accurate results. You DO know that, don't you? (That goes for anything in Archaelogy, btw, not just glue).

And population genetics...sorry but that's not a big help to you either. In fact it's a bigger problem for you than it is for me. Same goes with straightup world population numbers. If the Earth has been around for Billions of years, and Humans (or something like them) for at least a million, why are there only about 6 billion people? Hmmm? Where are all the bodies?

sam2000 said...

Hello my name is Sam, whoever is interested about the exodus do not let Mr. Babinski fool you. Mr. Babinski would have one believe that coral can grow on gold just because “a Christian says so”, so then if I get an atheist to say that it doesn’t then I’m right, right? Obviously the answer is no, this Christian should be an expert in the field of coral, but nothing is posted about his credentials, just that he is a Christian. I leave that to Mr. Babinski to continue to prove with better evidence (I hope) that coral can grow on gold and silver. So with that out of the way (up to you) let’s move on. Another point made by Mr. Babinski is that the golden wheel is not buried sufficiently in his opinion, but “barely”. One point I can raise is how does Mr. Babinski know how much it has been buried. Another person commented, “Where’s the rest of the chariot?” So to hit two birds with one stone it was probably buried. The bible it self says, “And it came to pass…the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud…And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily...And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.” Exodus 14:24-26. So basically the wheels came off just before God drowned them, so is this picture evidence of that? So what we should be finding in the alleged crossing site are wheels separated from their chariot carts, and whadda you know that is exactly what there is here. Touching a little more on this Mr. Babinski seems to ignore that more pictures were taken of other wheel formations, so why doesn’t he talk about them more? And people, read the bible before you make comments like “the chariot is suppose to be connected to the wheel”, because it’s not! Perhaps not relating to this in particular but one atheist told me that until Moses’ dead body is found hanging on a mountain, clinging to the commandments is when he’ll believe in the bible. Yet no where in the bible does it say that Moses died in this manner, so read the bible to better argue. Another argument Mr. Babinski uses is that these relics could have come from a shipwreck. So I ask where this ship is. If any of you have seen sunken ship documentaries then you know what a shipwreck looks like, and throughout Exodus Revealed there was nothing that remotely looked like a ship there. And let’s not forget from a commenter who said that this wheel looks nothing like a chariot wheel according to Google image search; I had a look myself, here’s the link:
http://hotcupofjoe.blogspot.com/2006/08/egyptian-chariots-part-2-of-2.html
Granted this wheel has more spokes but besides that, very similar. And another point I make is that the wheel in the red sea has no more wood, so take that into consideration too. If you also read the rest of the article from that link you will also note that chariots did have a fair amount of metals. Perhaps Mr. Babinski knowing that his argument is weak feels he must attack the person behind the discovery, but the discovery should speak for itself. Also there are many scientists who have a theory and go out to prove it, but they are still called scientists. And yes it is always up to the reader/viewer to decide, but if there is a truth, its true weather or not the reader/viewer chooses to believe it. Continuing on Mr. Babinski also fails to mention a very important clue as is to why this location is the red sea crossing site. On both shorelines of the crossing there are stone columns, and one which still has its inscription intact, indicates that the Gulf of Aqaba is the crossing site.
http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2008/02/20/chariot-wheels-found-in-the-red-sea/
So is it just a coincidence that along with two stone pillars there are broken chariot wheels on the sea floor? Maybe Mr. Babinski would like to have you believe that. Lastly I am in complete agreement that more evidence should be gathered, but that is not to say that the evidence already presented isn’t incredible. Mr. Babinski’s attempt at “debunking” the exodus is based solely on speculation, and opinion. Let me be honest though, Mr. Babinski and people like him will see or not see whatever they want to, even if the right amount of evidence is present. It’s up to you to agree or disagree but what is true is true whether you agree or not.
http://www.heargoodnews.com/gospel/doyouknow.html

joshua said...

i would be interested in what you think about saudi arabia's behavior towards these discoveries, and what you think that could mean. why would saudi authorities fence off certain areas that were previously accessible and threaten imprisonment if anyone trespasses? the answer seems pretty obvious. the archaeological discoveries corroborate the exodus account in the bible and torah. it is in the best interest of people of the muslem faith to have no further research done on them as it would (possibly) lend credence to the exodus story. if they did not believe there was truth to these discoveries, why barricade the area and not let anyone in? the fenced off area encompasses what is now believed to be the mt sinai where moses received the 10 commandments (which had traditionally thought to have been on the sinai peninsula, based on emperor constantine's dreams, nothing more) and the surrounding lower-lying areas that have biblical significance. most important of which is an altar of rock with hebraic inscriptions on it, and several carvings of a calf. well, these carvings didn't suddenly "appear" on this site did they? what is this if not the altar where 11 of the 12 tribes of israel worshiped the golden calf? i don't know, but no one is allowed near it now of course. its also the only find in saudi arabia with these carvings. also interesting to not is the arab name for the mountain, jebel al lawz, literally meaning mountain of laws. thats an interesting name.

also, after the discovery of the phoenecian pillar, it was shown to saudi authorities with the hebrew language writings on them. the writings were then defaced, erasing evidence of there existence. isn't that a little suspicious? in your writing you give this as an example of wyatt's evidence "vanishing". vanished indeed, but only after the saudis saw them...
and of course, there are 2 of these pillars, both of phoenecian (hebrew) design, meaning ca. 3000 years old. one on the egyptian coast of aqaba, one on the saudi side. where else could these have come from? they are mentioned in the bible, clearly, and i haven't heard any other possible explanation for there existence. just head scratching and shrugging. also Nuweiba, on the egyptian coast, is a name that has been altered over time. older maps show the full name, Nuwayba' al Muzayyinah, meaning "waters of moses opening". this name for the area existed FAR before any modern christians or jews tried to prove the crossing took place in aqaba.

with these thoughts in mind, what would questioning or debunking the authenticity of a single golden wheel actually mean? would it thus disprove all other evidence?

smarterthanthat said...

I have not taken the time to read your research or the other posts - I just read the top of your blog where it says you plan to debunk Christianity. You should probably try to debunk things that are not so ridiculous...of course that is not an ancient chariot wheel...lol

Doug said...

Every other book and person who has every tried to debunk Christianity has failed, but... of course there is always someone else who thinks they are smarter and better than anyone else and can "prove" what they are out to do! The attempted "ingenuity" of humans to try again and again what has been fruitlessly done by others before them is so amazing to me. The fact that many who have tried to "disprove" Christianity have actually come to believe it's message and it's Messiah, Yeshua, should be a "warning" to would-be detractors. Then again the old saying is still true today that men learn from history that men don't learn from history. Christ is very real, was an indisputable historic figure, has been acclaimed the best teacher and most moral person every to have lived. With thousands of eye-witnesses supporting His teachings and claims to be the Son of God and not a crazed lunatic, these fruitless attempts to disprove Christianity are lunatic themselves. Note I do not call people lunatic (deceived and willful, maybe, but not lunatic) but the attempts themselves.

cadman777 said...

After reading through the comments, I'm amazed at the high degree of emotion/speculation/propaganda and low degree of fact and critical thinking presented by nearl all of the bloggers.

1. One thing I noted while visiting the Mel Fisher museum on Key West was that the gold he found (all of it) had no coral growing on it.
However, the silver was very corroded for the most part.

If the chariot wheels were gold covered, it would seem reasonable to expect no coral to grow on their gold surfaces.

2. I noted in one of Wyatt's films a lot of footage showing evidence, among the Egyptian ruins, of the Djosep and Imhotep artifacts. This seemed very credible to me, especially the grain storage bins. Being in the equipment and machine design field of work, I found it easily plausable to consider those archeological site structures to be bins. They look like classic bins found in any industrial material storage/feeding operation of today, except that they were made of far more durable construction: rock, not steel. I found it interesting that there were grain kernels found among those runis.

I would like to add a side note to a comment presented insinuating that the Egyptians were not developed in their technology compared to were the world is today. It seems reasonable that if they had bins that are the same as those of today, and if forces and geometry have not changed over the ages, we could reasonable conclude that they were thinking along the same lines and with at least the same level of intelligence as our engineers do today. It is no small a matter to design a bin structure. The larger it is, the more engineering goes into it. Many years ago, while visiting the Middle East on studies, a book across my desk concerning the technology and engineering of the ancient Egyptians. It was based on ancient finding. The premise was that the ancient Egyptians were at least as advanced technologically as we are today, yet in their own way. I believe that people, who hold to the evolutionary world-view (='matter and energy shaped by pure chance'), will be predisposed to see a 'stone age' (in the crude, grunting, brute cave man sense of the term) character to anything ancient that doesn't have the outward appearance of what they are accustomed to. That is one of the principle errors in hermeneutics: taking one's own world-view into a document and reading it with that in mind. According to the science of interpretation, it is unacceptable to read into what one is looking at ideas and beliefs that are not present. That is what I have observed on this blog, as the rule.

cadman777 said...

3. Imanual Velikovsky wrote a book entitled, "Earth in Upheaval". Although all the 'unbelievers' I've spoken with discredit Velikovsky, I find his evidence to be credible. It is interesting how those who discredit Velikovsky rely on other authority from the modern industrial-commercial propaganda machinery to back them up. When one looks at the authorities pre-dating our modern propaganda system, they find a very different opinion on these matters.

The evidence that Velikovsky presents in his books shows an Egyptian chronology different from the modern 'orthodox' scheme/belief system, along with plausable causes for the 'waters piling up like walls ... with dry ground to walk on', as well as other unexplanable archeological, palentological and geological configurations found around the globe. Velikovsky has presented more evidence for his scheme than anything I've been taught in the modern schools and read in the modern books written on the subject.

cadman777 said...

Based on this evidence, coral would definately have grown on the 'wheels' in the photos, or else the salt water would have corroded them severely. It is highly doubtful that the Wyatt 'wheel' would have been so clean if made of steel, painted or not (even with epoxy paint, b/c the belt running surface and bore won't be painted, and thus would be the beginning place for corrosion).

Consequently I find the 'arguments' against Wyatt's wheel very weak.

5. Also, having lived among Muslims (and Jews) in the Middle East, the comments made by one blogger about the Saaudi gov't defacing, guarding from public view, and removing to behind closed doors the Wyatt artifacts, seems quite in keeping with the way things are done over there. One thing a Muslim won't do: admit the Existence of the Nation Israel. It's a sore point that will never go away. To get an idea of what I mean, read the 'tale' about the Dead Sea Scrolls discovery. It's quite a saga of intrigue and profiteering (initiated by Muslims).

6. The thing about Ron Wyatt that I didn't appreciate is his withholding of evidence on some of his finds. The thing I did like about Ron Wyatt is the enormous amount of personal resources he invested in his pursuit of Biblical evidences. For that alone, I'm betting he's a better man than anybody in here, including me. I'd even put him above most lazy archeologists (having rubbed shoulders w/them myself on a number of occasions). A title does not a practitioner make.

7. Having said that, I will also say that I am not a subscriber of 'Christian' religion. IMO, modern Christianity is an idolatrous sub-culture that serves the political state instead of the One True God that they claim to serve. The shame of the matter is that the atheists and agnostics also serve the state. It is at this point that both the Christians and atheists/agnostics are brothers, b/c they serve the same god.

8. The question I pose to the bloggers is this:
Do you want to debunk Christianity?
Or do you want to debunk YHWH God and Jesus Christ?

denis said...

hey all of you guys. you can't just say it ain't true because you don't belive in in it. also i believe this "skeptic" who wrote this should tell someone you who knows about this alot so they can give and anser. but no people like him try to make seem like they dont have answers. i'm just a curuios person who likes to see both sides. SHouldn't we look on all sides then look for the truth from all sides?

denis said...

i don't have ansers to all of this questions. but when i go to heaven, i'll ask God to show me the video of how it happened, and i'll be like wow, so those people were right or wrong.

john said...

My Tanach has a map that shows a route from Sccoth, Etham, Baal Zephon. Baal Zephon is on a peninsula sticking into the Med. Sea a little east of the Nile. There is a narrow ridge of sea-level rock going East and then returning to Egypt. An East wind would bare it and the return wave would be dangerous. Tanach nor the English Bible says RED Sea. Only sea. Torah isn't history. This garment wrapped about Torah looks "Red" but the spiritual significance of the Hierogluyphs Sammach Waw Phay is relevant to the intellect/intuition of men.
I have asked askarabbi.com and askmoses.com and they both say they don't have access to a Jerusalem Tanach.
anybody interested? christ3030@yahoo.com

vocab malone/jm rieser said...

I am a Seminary student @ an Evangelical school who blogs on apologetics and I must say this: Ron Wyatt is NOT credible and his "research" is NOT to be trusted - ever! Please stop defending him - it looks REALLY bad.

I do believe in an actual Exodus but do not desire fabricated evidence to bolster its proof.

For more scholarly works, check out:
"Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition" by James K. Hoffmeier (Oxford University Press, 1999)
or
"Ancient Egypt and the Old Testament" by John D. Currid (Baker Academic, 1997)

Much better...
vm

J.SCHUMANN said...

SHALOM;You are barking the wrong tree,having been deluded by your own standard and swallowed your fathers lies as YESHUA spoke plainly of his character and game-plan [Isaiah 14.12-18,Ezekiel 28.3-19,John 8.18-59] that will destroy your dreams finally. You be privledged ,having chosen to enter your master SATAN strategy and been cocky , have been suckered and lulled to a journey that has been traveled not by few and is a one way ticked [Luke 16],a final destiny being willfully ignorant of the TRUTH [2 Peter 3]. Your reward from the Deceiver of having the mocking the HOLY ONE of Israel YESHUA your calling a deadly path of wanton rebellion against the LIGHT ,YESHUA you have been exposed yet flaut purposely.He has not left you in the dark,without showing mercy all these days.Repent and get reconciled to the CREATOR and SAVIOR YESHUA ,KING of Israel [John 1-3,Acts 2-4,Romans 1-4-8,1 John ] why it is called today [Hebrews 3]. Stop from a future that is yours of complete hopelessness in the lake of fire with all who despise the LOVE of GOD in the face of His SON YESHUA ,the LORD of GLORY[1 Corinthians 2.8,John 5-8,Hebrews 1-3,12.25-29].The wages of sin is death ,but the gift of GOD is eternal LIFE trough JESUS CHRIST our LORD.What can one expect ,the payment of their deliberate acts against the GOD of TRUTH [Jeremiah 10.10-16,Luke 16,Jude,Revelation 10-21.8] who made known and revealed HIMSELF .The KING of Israel YESHUA who died for our sins, was buried and rose from the death on the third day according to the SCRIPTURE of TRUTH.YESHUA has spoken to the Jews who claim their heritage of being Abrahams children yet have denied the HOLY ONE of Israel coming, foretold in the SCRIPTURE[Isaiah 52-53,Micah 5.2,Zechariah 9.9,11.11-13].This same KING of Israel YESHUA whom the desciples saw going to heaven [Acts 1.1-12]shall come to rescue Israel[Jeremiah 31,Zechariah 12-13,Matthew 24,Luke 19-21,2 Thessalonians 1-2].Their testimony was proclaimed since that time going forth from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth and will so till the beloved SON of GOD will reveal Himself as we see in the BIBLE [Psalm 2,Zechariah 12-13,2 Thessalonians 1-2,Revelation 19].I used the KING JAMES VERSION of BIBLE as seen in [biblegateway.com].YESHUA loves you.John

Anonymous said...

i can not say anything about this. first of all it's hard to prove anything beyond 1500 B.C. so rather than cussing and fighting against each other. just tell all the theories, let people decide what they want to believe. and that's all. when i go meet God, i'll ask him what in the world happened. but for now just don't blast each other! it makes Christianity look complicated and stupid.

john said...

This should be routed to the question of a forum about lookinf at looking at the bible after the "religious" filter is removed. "Security" made me run in circles and lose the portal for that comment.]
Debunking Cristianity sounds mean but violent nationlists have so corrupted the the gifts of Jesus or at least the writng school attributed to Him that a mite of anti-bunkem is in order. For instance a look at the book He read--and its supposed Greek "translation."
The long post that had "John" at the end--I'll look at it shortly.


e latin word re-ligion is translated reconnection. Ligaments connect muscles(nerve-neuron triggered) to body members.
Buddahism is the only popular "religion" that focuses on reconnecting the body to the mind by quelling the internal dialogue which forces the mmind to disrtraction from ideas usually attached to addictions(comfort, pleasur, fear etc.
The central message of the NT is to accept the sving grace of the Death of the Word. The "Red Sea" parting is the same reconnection story. Eqypt is the mind enslaved by its addictions the holy land is the body and the "REd" sea is the restriction-neck between them ---voice box reflector of the babbel.
The three "religions" from the Middle East are mass hypnosis for various National purposes.
Your forum sounds interesting. History is cram packed with the violence of the planters of Nations--killing for peace. Please send me a note should you succede in opening a mind or two to the non-religious aspects of these three "religions."

john said...

I posted a comment in Aug. and no-one responded. Am I to assume that no-one knows a Tanach is the Old Testament in Hebrew or that those who do choose to not put any wood on this fire to keep the thought-provoking idea from doing so.
Yes, I am paranoid--that the cabal is still in power(Khabbalah)
and modern christians aren't any more insigthtful than those of the dark-ages.
Is it beyond possibility that the forces that squashed Jesus for His ideas are swarming over the internet?




My Tanach has a map that shows a route from Succoth, Etham, Baal Zephon. Baal Zephon is on a peninsula sticking into the Med. Sea a little east of the Nile.(your Bible says "sea" not "Red Sea") There is a narrow ridge of sea-level rock going East and then returning to Egypt. An East wind would bare it and the return wave would be dangerous. Tanach nor the English Bible says RED Sea. Only sea. Torah isn't history. This garment wrapped about Torah looks "Red" but the spiritual significance of the Hierogluyphs Sammach Waw Phay is relevant to the intellect/intuition of men.
I have asked askarabbi.com and askmoses.com and they both say they don't have access to a Jerusalem Tanach.
anybody interested?

kgoonliang said...

Actually this doesn't disprove that the Red Sea story is fake. It merely shows that Ron Wyatt didn't do his homework. Trying to link this to debunk a religion is pretty much a major error in scientific research and analysis.

Garry said...

Hey-I thought you needed a new topic...
There is a new book out THE QUEST FOR THE LOCATION OF THE RED SEA CROSSING, (Nov. 2009, Amazon.com, ISBN-13: 978-1597552455) with a new route for the Exodus and a new crossing place of the Red Sea (Yam Suf). It is based on the belief that Josephus was right and Israel left from the west side of the Nile. All the places names have been found; (1) Succoth = Sokar (Saqqara) (2) Etham = Atium. (3) Migdol = Great Pyramid. (4) Ball-zephon = Sphinx. (5) Pi-hahiroth = Pē hah•khē•roth (pronunciation of Strong’s) Kheraha, Pi-Khiroti. (6) The Sea = Flooded Delta from the seventh plague (Exodus 9:24).
Well at least one can't say it not new...

Jesse said...

I'm still undecided about this story, but it bothers me to see the word "amateur" being used as an insult. Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the Mycenaean Civilization was an amateur. The fact is that many important archaeological discoveries have been made by amateurs.

--== said...

Debunking Christianity?

I found you guys while surfing Google and thought I'd drop in and spill a few lines with my new keyboard. Nothing better in life than jabbing a long pole into a hornet's nest and then run like crazy!

Here's the first pole jab...

After reading many of the posts here, it strikes me funny that many, if not most atheists here and other sites completely ignore Islam, and if you do say something negative about Islam, you have to group it with Christianity or hide in the word of "religion".

I lived in the middle east and Christianity is wonderful compared to living with Muslims (if you not Muslim)!

Islam is like a hybridized Klingon/Borg religion that takes no prisoners. They don't knock on your doors and give away free pamphlets, or pray for you outside your door. In a totally run Muslim country, they kick doors down and beat you into submission! Resistance is futile! Period!

I guess you atheists are frightened of Islam, so you just mostly ignore the fastest growing, strongest religion in the world! Ask India, North Africa, East Africa, England (a Muslim nation in 5 years), even western China and scores of other countries now conquered! You know all this.

I look at your strategic battle plan against religion and see that it's like your waging a huge assault on a Cub Scout troop, while you almost purposely ignore the massive division build up of armored Nazi stormtroopers just beyond the hill.

Are you guys that stupid, or are you just plain totally blinded by fear that it has sent you into a state of Islamic denial shock? You're picking fights with sheep, while wolves are surrounding you!

...or, what's really happening here is that all of you are more threatened by Jesus Christ than by Mohammad!

That is why you do everything you can to convince yourselves and others that He is not real, because secretly, He is a threat to you. Repeat, Christ is a threat to you, not His followers! ...but you will never admit that to anyone, not even yourselves.

Forming groups with other "non-believers" (deniers) helps you sleep better at night. Science is your pacifier.

You are waking up every morning, fighting God and writing in your small "no-God" blogs, and that's the center of your small little world here on earth. If I myself truly didn't believe in God, the last thing I would do is to waste one second of my life writing about His non-existence.

Thank about it, if someone told me that they did not love a particular girl anymore, and everyday they wrote and spoke about not loving her. And this went on day after day, year after year. I'd say they still loved her and were in a state of denial.

Final jab.

Indiana Jones movies; to me, the best one was "The Last Crusade", and in that film there was one man named Kazim, who bested Indy. He had strength where Indy had none.

The two were fighting in a stopped speed boat that was being chewed up by a huge ship's propeller...

Kazim: "If you don't let go Dr. Jones, we'll both die!"

Indiana Jones: "Then we'll die!"

Kazim: "My soul is prepared! How's yours?"

Vingy said...

you know what, you guys put in so much effort to diss the idea of God and his exisitence, that I'm thinking he must be real, 'cos you're all trying too hard! do your own research - go spend your own money and dive under water and take your own snapshots, then talk. why not talk about the coral covered wheels - those were found too.