I read it and thought it was great. I like the fact that it is in a magazine that has no apparent investment in either side and is reputable. I especially like the Dawkins foundation grant to help them start a new career.
WOW! This is where I am at this point in my life. As a CCM singer/songwriter I watched my life crumble down because of a divorce. Then I couldn't get a gig to save my life. Judgemental bastards!
To back track a bit, I had always questioned why "christians" never called god by his name (Yahweh). Always praying in "His" name, but never saying his name. Even when so-called prominent preachers would say Jehovah, I would cringe. "Don't they know that "Jehovah" is a made up name?" I would think to myself.
Then the whole Easter/Christmas pagan origins. If I would engage in a conversation with someone including pastors about my issues with this they would say "yeah, I know but it's the the celebration of his birth or death and resurection. Were not celebrating the pagan things". Pathetic excuse!
It's great to know that there are blogs like this to read and realize that I am not alone in my de-conversion. Thanks for letting me vent, John. This is my "coming out" so to speak.
I did get one gig back in January after a year and a half lay-off. I felt so hypocritical that I just can't do it anymore.
As a recent "De-converter" myself, it is heartening to know that I am not alone in this profound life-changing transition. I can fully relate to Dan Barker's appreciation that his imaginary friend, the "eyeball" is gone and it is a little unnerving at first. This article also touches on the consequences of how one's new "atheist" status can alienate and you from your family and friends. It is a lonely place to be in some ways but so liberating on the other hand to be able to be honest with one's thoughts and questions. I feel for those whose careers depend on remaining faithful to the dogma of their sect as this must place a huge extra strain on their ability to engage these troubling issues.
I liked the article, fairly written. This may come as no shock but I identify, somewhat, withe Pearson in the article. I especially like his quote at the end:
"You're starting to embrace your own thinking self—the essential, immutable, immortal self— as opposed to the accidental criminal you have been made to think you are."
Geeesh, John you could have picked someone a little less...hypocritical, to highlight. From the article:
"McAllister had been raised Catholic, then drifted into a 25-year interregnum where he stopped going to church and called himself an atheist. A midlife spiritual restlessness nudged him into chaplaincy training years ago."
What kind of "atheist" goes into ministry training?!? Are you holding this guy up as some sort of role model?" This guy is a hypocrite of the worst kind. If he doesn't believe in what he's doing, he should have the decency to quit.
Murphy, what are you suggesting here? I linked to a good read. I liked what Dan Barker said. I fully endorse the actions of no one. But there are atheists in the pulpit just like there are atheists in the pews. I've heard from a couple of them.
Hi John: It is a good read, I don't deny that. What I meant to say is that this guy is not a very good role model for atheists. He doesn't have the courage of his convictions. Anyone who is an atheist and in the pulpit, to my way of thinking is a coward.
You want to talk about good role models for Christians? Care to compare notes? If you mention several Christian role models in today's world, I'll bet'cha that in a few years at least one of them is having an affair right now, or molesting some child, or participating in illegal activities of some sort.
jwl said: "...in a few years at least one of them is having an affair right now, or molesting some child, or participating in illegal activities of some sort."
[sarcasm] Now now, John. You're not exactly being fair to Mr. Murphy here. You're just saying things like that because it happens. There's no need to bring reality into the picture! [/sarcasm]
Responding to John Loftus, John Murphy said... "Anyone who is an atheist and in the pulpit, to my way of thinking is a coward."
Mr. Murphy, please check out the writings of Harry T. Cook at www.harrytcook.com for an example of an atheist in the pulpit who is most assuredly not a coward. I discovered Harry Cook when he was a guest on a public radio program along with Rabbi Sherwin Wine.
While Harry chooses to call himself agnostic, nothing in his writings indicate that he is a theist despite his having been active Christian clergy(Episcopalian) for over forty years.
I followed up hearing the public radio program by e-mailing Harry the following questions.
1. You don't appear to exalt Jesus as divine, a position more similar to we atheists than the run-of-the-mill Christians, so how do you characterize your thoughts about supernaturalism, especially as it relates to religion? 2. If you do not hold Jesus sacred, how do you justify remaining in the clergy? 3. What do you see as the function of the Christian religion in people's lives, if Jesus is not divine? 4. Do you consider human morality to have a supernatural source?
Here are Harry's responses: 1.Supernaturalism is phony-baloney stuff. Nature is enough for human beings to deal with. I give it no thought whatsoever.
2. Jesus didn't believe Hillel the Elder was sacred (or maybe you mean "divine.") And neither did most followers until the fathers of the Nicene Council decided by majority vote that such was so. There are plenty of us in the clergy who, on the basis of evidence and its research, that "Jesus" as he is variously depicted in the gospels is a fiction -- ok, a "sacred" fiction if you want.
3. Some one is on record in the early part of the First Century C.E. as having articulated a marvelous ethical vision of how human beings can live together in peace, security and opportunity. It's all summed up in the Jesus riff on Hillel's summary of Torah: WHAT YOU HATE, DO NOT DO TO ANOTHER or "do unto others..." The day that the critical mass of human beings adopt that wisdom and live by it is the day the world will be saved from itself. Maybe then I'll be ready to talk about the divinity of whoever said that stuff in the first place.
4. I do not consider morality or ethics to have a supernatural source. The celestial hand proffering the etched tablets to Charlton Heston (apparently unarmed at the time) is a metaphor representing the much longer and more difficult process the ancient Hebrews endured in figuring out how to keep people from killing each others. They figured out that if you made stealing taboo, fewer people would kill to get. And if you made envy taboo, few people would steal. Since it was the elders in the early tribes who figured out that stuff, it was necessary to mandate the honoring of father and mother, and after those early generations passed away, successor elders transferred the tribal honor to the spirits of the dead elders and, finally, to an unseen god whence the elders had come in the first place.
My favorite comment from Harry is one he says he has actually made from the pulpit, "I am an atheist, in that I am not a theist."
In general I agree with your idea that atheists occupying the pulpit are cowards, but Harry is one notable exception.
I saw this when the issue arrived in the mail and you came to mind as someone who has lost his career and now struggles. I believe you posted in the past about how hard it is for you to get work as an atheist. It's tough, knowing that you can survive by going back to what you're used to. Just manufacture an inner-revival! Everyone knows I no longer believe but all I have to do is write a book about Jesus appearing to me in my bedroom and converting me back with a little trip to heaven and I'm back on the map.
I put a video series on YouTube called "You were never TRULY saved" in response to those who accuse us of this, and a person sent a message yesterday called "You were never TRULY trapped." He asked me to imagine training for ministry, getting a church to pastor, finding stability, prestige, community, financial security, and having made decisions based on God's supernatural leading - like moving somewhere or marrying someone. I start to have doubts or an atheist confronts me. Can I really afford to be honest and give up my life as I know it? As the article said, you are still paying your Bible college debt and can't do anything else with that divinity degree.
His point was I was lucky that my life could be managable and stable should I walk away. A life overhaul begs for years of stress on your nervous system, fighting what you are used to responding to, and trying to find life without God desirable and livable. This takes a horrible toll on life, so many opt to be church-going practical atheists.
I think the compromise is found in liberal Christianity like Spong, Borg, the emergent church, and others who try to retain their position and influence while redefining Christianity. Darwin called the Unitarian church a featherbed for fallen Christians.
What I liked best in the article was the relief that is found from finally not having to try so hard to make the world fit my beliefs as I had to as a Christian. Even today, most Christians endure conversation with me without really engaging me, and you can see the visible struggle and discomfort they have when reason threatens or exposes the corner cutting to make Christianity seem true.
As a Christian, I was always qualifying why things weren't working, but as an unbeliever, the world makes sense. I don't wake up every day with angels appearing in my room and predicting the next day's news accurately to stunt my unbelief!
13 comments:
I read it and thought it was great.
I like the fact that it is in a magazine that has no apparent investment in either side and is reputable. I especially like the Dawkins foundation grant to help them start a new career.
WOW! This is where I am at this point in my life.
As a CCM singer/songwriter I watched my life crumble down because of a divorce. Then I couldn't get a gig to save my life. Judgemental bastards!
To back track a bit, I had always questioned why "christians" never called god by his name (Yahweh). Always praying in "His" name, but never saying his name. Even when so-called prominent preachers would say Jehovah, I would cringe. "Don't they know that "Jehovah" is a made up name?" I would think to myself.
Then the whole Easter/Christmas pagan origins. If I would engage in a conversation with someone including pastors about my issues with this they would say "yeah, I know but it's the the celebration of his birth or death and resurection. Were not celebrating the pagan things". Pathetic excuse!
It's great to know that there are blogs like this to read and realize that I am not alone in my de-conversion.
Thanks for letting me vent, John.
This is my "coming out" so to speak.
I did get one gig back in January after a year and a half lay-off. I felt so hypocritical that I just can't do it anymore.
As a recent "De-converter" myself, it is heartening to know that I am not alone in this profound life-changing transition. I can fully relate to Dan Barker's appreciation that his imaginary friend, the "eyeball" is gone and it is a little unnerving at first. This article also touches on the consequences of how one's new "atheist" status can alienate and you from your family and friends. It is a lonely place to be in some ways but so liberating on the other hand to be able to be honest with one's thoughts and questions. I feel for those whose careers depend on remaining faithful to the dogma of their sect as this must place a huge extra strain on their ability to engage these troubling issues.
Thanks for posting this link.
-evan
I liked the article, fairly written. This may come as no shock but I identify, somewhat, withe Pearson in the article. I especially like his quote at the end:
"You're starting to embrace your own thinking self—the essential, immutable, immortal self— as opposed to the accidental criminal you have been made to think you are."
Here's to all us accidental criminals.
Geeesh, John you could have picked someone a little less...hypocritical, to highlight. From the article:
"McAllister had been raised Catholic, then drifted into a 25-year interregnum where he stopped going to church and called himself an atheist. A midlife spiritual restlessness nudged him into chaplaincy training years ago."
What kind of "atheist" goes into ministry training?!? Are you holding this guy up as some sort of role model?" This guy is a hypocrite of the worst kind. If he doesn't believe in what he's doing, he should have the decency to quit.
Murphy, what are you suggesting here? I linked to a good read. I liked what Dan Barker said. I fully endorse the actions of no one. But there are atheists in the pulpit just like there are atheists in the pews. I've heard from a couple of them.
Hi John: It is a good read, I don't deny that. What I meant to say is that this guy is not a very good role model for atheists. He doesn't have the courage of his convictions. Anyone who is an atheist and in the pulpit, to my way of thinking is a coward.
You want to talk about good role models for Christians? Care to compare notes? If you mention several Christian role models in today's world, I'll bet'cha that in a few years at least one of them is having an affair right now, or molesting some child, or participating in illegal activities of some sort.
jwl said: "...in a few years at least one of them is having an affair right now, or molesting some child, or participating in illegal activities of some sort."
[sarcasm]
Now now, John. You're not exactly being fair to Mr. Murphy here. You're just saying things like that because it happens. There's no need to bring reality into the picture!
[/sarcasm]
" It felt as if charges had been dropped for a crime for which he had been falsely accused."
WOW.
I liked the piece. Thanks for the post and link.
Responding to John Loftus, John Murphy said... "Anyone who is an atheist and in the pulpit, to my way of thinking is a coward."
Mr. Murphy, please check out the writings of Harry T. Cook at www.harrytcook.com for an example of an atheist in the pulpit who is most assuredly not a coward. I discovered Harry Cook when he was a guest on a public radio program along with Rabbi Sherwin Wine.
While Harry chooses to call himself agnostic, nothing in his writings indicate that he is a theist despite his having been active Christian clergy(Episcopalian) for over forty years.
I followed up hearing the public radio program by e-mailing Harry the following questions.
1. You don't appear to exalt Jesus as divine, a position more similar to we atheists than the run-of-the-mill Christians, so how do you characterize your thoughts about supernaturalism, especially as it relates to religion?
2. If you do not hold Jesus sacred, how do you justify remaining in the clergy?
3. What do you see as the function of the Christian religion in people's lives, if Jesus is not divine?
4. Do you consider human morality to have a supernatural source?
Here are Harry's responses:
1.Supernaturalism is phony-baloney stuff. Nature is enough for human beings to deal with. I give it no thought whatsoever.
2. Jesus didn't believe Hillel the Elder was sacred (or maybe you mean "divine.") And neither did most followers until the fathers of the Nicene Council decided by majority vote that such was so. There are plenty of us in the clergy who, on the basis of evidence and its research, that "Jesus" as he is variously depicted in the gospels is a fiction -- ok, a "sacred" fiction if you want.
3. Some one is on record in the early part of the First Century C.E. as having articulated a marvelous ethical vision of how human beings can live together in peace, security and opportunity. It's all summed up in the Jesus riff on Hillel's summary of Torah: WHAT YOU HATE, DO NOT DO TO ANOTHER or "do unto others..." The day that the critical mass of human beings adopt that wisdom and live by it is the day the world will be saved from itself. Maybe then I'll be ready to talk about the divinity of whoever said that stuff in the first place.
4. I do not consider morality or ethics to have a supernatural source. The celestial hand proffering the etched tablets to Charlton Heston (apparently unarmed at the time) is a metaphor representing the much longer and more difficult process the ancient Hebrews endured in figuring out how to keep people from killing each others. They figured out that if you made stealing taboo, fewer people would kill to get. And if you made envy taboo, few people would steal. Since it was the elders in the early tribes who figured out that stuff, it was necessary to mandate the honoring of father and mother, and after those early generations passed away, successor elders transferred the tribal honor to the spirits of the dead elders and, finally, to an unseen god whence the elders had come in the first place.
My favorite comment from Harry is one he says he has actually made from the pulpit, "I am an atheist, in that I am not a theist."
In general I agree with your idea that atheists occupying the pulpit are cowards, but Harry is one notable exception.
Thanks John,
I saw this when the issue arrived in the mail and you came to mind as someone who has lost his career and now struggles. I believe you posted in the past about how hard it is for you to get work as an atheist. It's tough, knowing that you can survive by going back to what you're used to. Just manufacture an inner-revival! Everyone knows I no longer believe but all I have to do is write a book about Jesus appearing to me in my bedroom and converting me back with a little trip to heaven and I'm back on the map.
I put a video series on YouTube called "You were never TRULY saved" in response to those who accuse us of this, and a person sent a message yesterday called "You were never TRULY trapped." He asked me to imagine training for ministry, getting a church to pastor, finding stability, prestige, community, financial security, and having made decisions based on God's supernatural leading - like moving somewhere or marrying someone. I start to have doubts or an atheist confronts me. Can I really afford to be honest and give up my life as I know it? As the article said, you are still paying your Bible college debt and can't do anything else with that divinity degree.
His point was I was lucky that my life could be managable and stable should I walk away. A life overhaul begs for years of stress on your nervous system, fighting what you are used to responding to, and trying to find life without God desirable and livable. This takes a horrible toll on life, so many opt to be church-going practical atheists.
I think the compromise is found in liberal Christianity like Spong, Borg, the emergent church, and others who try to retain their position and influence while redefining Christianity. Darwin called the Unitarian church a featherbed for fallen Christians.
What I liked best in the article was the relief that is found from finally not having to try so hard to make the world fit my beliefs as I had to as a Christian. Even today, most Christians endure conversation with me without really engaging me, and you can see the visible struggle and discomfort they have when reason threatens or exposes the corner cutting to make Christianity seem true.
As a Christian, I was always qualifying why things weren't working, but as an unbeliever, the world makes sense. I don't wake up every day with angels appearing in my room and predicting the next day's news accurately to stunt my unbelief!
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