I agree,this and prayer are two areas of christianity where believers should really pay attention and give it some serious thought. These two things verge on 'testable' in an honest personal scientific type of inquiry of ones personal beliefs. I highly recommend it to anyone.These two things require that you try and decide what is god and what is chance. I found them to be indistinguishable.How do you account for the fact that you can reliably increase your likelihood of a successful outcome if you pre-plan, think things through, explore and seek out new options instead of waiting around on God. And if you say "God doesn't want us to use him to avoid responsibility", where do you draw the line?How much does God want us to depend on him? What is enough and what is not? Should I pray or call 911? Should I pray or go to the doctor? Should I pray or look into all the factors that come into play in this new Job that I have to relocate for?Choices, choices, choices.....
As a Christian, I must say that I agree with you to a point on this issue. All too often people choose to jump into a situation without choosing to rationally think about the consequences of their actions. That being said, I do know that there are times when a situation looks grim to everyone on the outside but God does provide. However, these are simply experiences and I will not use them to make a point. You would simply argue that it was chance.
God says that so you won't live in fear about the future and become unbalanced. Having faith in God keeps you from worring about the future. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pre-plan for things.
I agree - this old joke is pertinent.And I think there's a parallel point about scientific progress (and general efforts to better our own condition): some people say that if god had meant us to fly, he'd have given us wings. I think that if god had meant us to fly, he'd have given us the ability to invent aeroplanes.
On Mark 8:14-21This passage sheds a very vivid light on the minds of the disciples. They were crossing over to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, and they had forgotten to bring bread with them. We will best get the meaning of this passage if we connect it closely with what goes before. jesus was thinking of the demand of the Pharisees for a sign and also thinking of Herod's terrified reaction to himself. 'Beware', he said, to translate it literally, 'of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.' To a Jew, leaven was the symbol of evil. Leaven was a piece of dough kept over from a previous baking and fermented. To a Jew, fermentation was identified with putrefaction, and therefore leaven stood for evil.Sometimes Jews would use the word LEAVEN much as we would use the term ORIGINAL SIN, or the natural evil of human nature. It was so to speak the taint of human nature, original sin, the corrupting leaven which kept human beings from doing the will of God. So when Jesus said this, he was saying, 'Be on your guard against the evil influence of the Pharisees and of Herod. Don't you go the same way that the Pharisees and Herod have already gone.'What is the point? What possible connection is there between the Pharisees and Herod? The Pharisees had just asked for a sign. For a Jew, nothing was easier than to think of the Messiah in terms of wonders and conquests and miraculous happenings and nationalistic triumphs and political supremacy. Herod had tried to build up happiness through the gaining of power and wealth and influence and prestige. In one sense, for both the Pharisees and Herod the kingdom of God was an earthly kingdom; it was based on earthly power and greatness, and on the victories that force could win. It was as if Jesus by this detached hint was already preparing the disciples for something very soon to come. It was as if he was saying, 'Maybe soon it will dawn on you that I am God's Anointed One, the Messiah. When that thought does come, don't think in terms of earthly power and glory as the Pharisees and Herod do.' Of the true meaning, at the moment he said nothing. That grim revelation was still to come.In point of fact, this hint of Jesus passed clean over the disciples' heads. They could think of nothing but the fact that they had forgotten to bring loaves, and that unless something happened , they would go hungry. Jesus saw their preoccupation with bread. it may well be that he asked his questions not with anger, but with a smile, like one who tries to lead a slow child to see a self-evident truth. He reminded them that twice he had satisfied the hunger of huge crowds with food enough and to spare. It is as if he said, 'Why all the worry? Don't you remember what happened before? Hasn't this experience taught you that you don't need to worry about things like that if you are with me?'The odd fact is that we learn only half the lessons of experience. Too often experience fills us with pessimism, teaches us what we cannot do, teaches us to view life with a kind of resigned hopelessness. But there are other experiences. Sorrow came - -and we came through it still standing. Temptation came - and somehow we did not fall. Illness took us - and somehow we recovered. A problem seemed insoluble - and somehow it was solved. We are at our wits' end - and somehow we did not break. We, too, are blind. If we would only read the real lessons of experience aright, it would teach us not the pessimism of the things that cannot be, but the hope which stands amazed that God has brought us thus far in safety and in certainty, and the confidence that God can bring us through anything that may happen.
Gid certainly provided the Ethiopians with starvation and death.
There were and still are Christian missions in Ethiopia who work to relieve the peoples suffering. It is the "leaven" as Bill puts it, that is the cause fo this tragedy. Those responsible, all those who acted in these events or who did nothing to prevent it will be judged. And those who lost their lives are with God. We are active participents in our lives. Christians do not sit around waiting for something to happen. We make things happen.
All things work together for good for those that love God. To live is Christ and to die is gain. If I die I go to be with God. So, God will provide whether I live or die.
There were and still are Christian missions in Ethiopia who work to relieve the peoples suffering. It is the "leaven" as Bill puts it, that is the cause fo this tragedy. Those responsible, all those who acted in these events or who did nothing to prevent it will be judged. And those who lost their lives are with God. We are active participents in our lives. Christians do not sit around waiting for something to happen. We make things happen.Indeed Christians are assisting starving peoples. One can find links to various Christian charities. However, it should be recognized that they , not God, are the providers. God simply set the stage.Michael
How often we hear in these days, from the keyboards of the unbelievers as well as from the hearts of those who are confused by the program of God, the question, "If there is a God in heaven why does he not do something?" Have you not heard men say that? They point at the awful, devilish and hell-begotten atrocities of the world dictators with thier campaigns of terror and desolation; the bombing of civilian communities, hospitals and children's homes; the laying waste of whole cities and countries; the spilling of the blood of countless thousands of innocent victims who had neither part nor voice in bringing all this about. The only answer to these questions is given in the scriptures. This is the time of God's silence. He is permitting men to go in their wicked way in order that He may prove in the end that the heart of man is corrupt and desperatly wicked as ever. With all the centuries of our flaunted civilization, its education and reform, the heart of man has never been improved. The unregenerate heart of man is no different, whether educated or illiterate. The more refined and educated the heart of man the more dangerous he becomes, without the love of God within his bosom. Witness the nations today. What progress has been made in every field of endeavor! Yet man, instead of using the increased knowledge and invention to make a better world, is using them to destroy others and himself.All this is according to God's program. Nowhere in the whole Bible is there a verse to support the contention that this age is going to get better and better until at last by mutual understanding of men and nations, by conference and education, by reform and legislation, by preaching of social gospel we shall finally come to our senses and banish war and bring in an age of peace and contentment. NO! NO! NO! That is not God's Word. Instead it teaches us that wicked men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. Instead it tells us that in the last days perilous times shall come and there shall be wars and rumors of wars, violence, hatred and destruction. That golden age will never come until the Prince of Peace comes. David describes the days in which you and I are living in these words: "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."(Psalm 2:1-3)God is silent through it all. He lets men, in their mad delusion, rave about working out their own salvation. God is still on the throne, however, even though He does not intervene. The cause of the whole matter that vexes the world today is this: the world is at enmity against God. One of these days, Jesus Christ will come again. The question "Why does not God do something?" will be abundantly answered.
"He is permitting men to go in their wicked way in order that He may prove in the end that the heart of man is corrupt and desperatly wicked as ever..."God made junk? God watches his children -- his "creation" -- screw up without as much as a peep? I'm glad I didn't take parenting lessons from THAT example.
Sandy, God gave us the New Testament, and the teachings of Christ. Christ gave his life and rose from the dead for a sign that these teachings were the truth and the life and the light of the world in all this darkness and chaos. We choose not to be obediant to God. As Ralph said: "The world is at enmity with God. At any time people can trun from their wickedness and reconcile themselves with God. This is why we are guilty. God has given us the answer, he has shown us the way, but most do not beleiv it, they do not accept it.
God made junk? God watches his children -- his "creation" -- screw up without as much as a peep? I'm glad I didn't take parenting lessons from THAT example.Absolutely, Sandy.Here is a hint: God does not serve us.Michael
Michael, I got the hint. But, it was bigger than just a hint...I got cracked upside the head with a reality check and it knocked superstition, fear, weakness and inadequacy right out of me."God does not serve us," no doubt. WE serve us. I now realize what a pathetic passenger I was in my own life for having even the smallest expectation of the Christian God. It rendered me inactive in areas of my life which required belief in MYSELF and confidence to 'go get 'em' regardless of someone -- something -- elses "master plan" for me. I am now fully engaged in my life and aside from the things which I have no control over, I'm fully responsible for the good and bad I bring into my life. I am accountable."Will God Provide?" I'm not wasting another second waiting to find out. I'm being good to my future self and planning!Chinese Proverb: Pearls lie not on the seashore. If thou desirest one thou must dive for it.
Well la dee freakin da.
Good for you Sandy. Your observation is correct, according to Christianity man was created to go straight to hell. Then for some reason god decided to change that 2,000 years ago, according to a collection of texts compiled 300 years later. To this day Christians can't agree on the basics of their religion, for example Ralph says above: "this is the time of God's silence," yet there are millions of Christians that will tell you god has spoken to them.
You understanding of Christians and Christianity is warped and perverted.
Ok anonymous, is Pat Robertson lying when he says god speaks to him?
I don't think he's lying. I think he really believes that God is speaking to him
Anonymous said...I don't think he's lying.Does god speak to Pat Robertson?
Nick, this is Anonymous...You asked, Is Pat Robertson Lying when he says that God is Speaking to him?I believe he is. And I have been shinned by other Christians for believing this. I said, It is not important that I accept the gospel of pat Robertson. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.Is God silent. I don't know what Ralph meant by silent. Silence and absence are different. God can still be silent while presentand we can be aware of his presence, his invisible eyes and ears watching and listening. However, God does speak to people, I beleive I've heard him. And of course we have the Gospel stories. I belive that bad things happen because of what people do. We are trying to complete our own destinies and this cuases conflict with other lives. We are selfish and forget the law of love.I am Christian, but I do not have all the answers. Christianity is a relationship with God and we learn everyday. Anyone who claims tohave all the answers is a fool or a liar. I don't really know which one Pat Robertson is. Perhpas he is both. I'm sorry if I offend any other Christians out there. And I hope you don't call me a heretic or worse and atheist. When I was saved, it was Jesus Christ who entered into my heart and life. I believe this.
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Pat Robertson may be speaking with a god, but it is not the Christian God. Money is God to Pat Roberstosn and most of the rest of the world. He is a highh preist of the material world.
I don't know if God speaks to him or not. But I think he really believes that God is speaking to him. So I wouldn't say he's lying about God speaking to him.
Anonymous said:You asked, Is Pat Robertson Lying when he says that God is Speaking to him? I believe he is. And I have been shinned by other Christians for believing this.So as a Christian you can believe Pat speaks to god, or you can believe that he is lying, either view is acceptable. Saying one communicates with the being that created the universe is a pretty extraordinary claim, and Pat, or anyone else for that matter, is free to make that claim with no penalty for making it up. In fact you can pretty much believe what you want, within certain limits. You can believe the Bible is literally true or that it must be interpreted. You can believe in the doctrine of the Trinity or not. For 800 years the Vatican has maintained that limbo exists, now they say it doesn't. All these beliefs are arbitrary, there is no way to verify any of them.God can still be silent while presentand we can be aware of his presence, his invisible eyes and ears watching and listening.If I thought an invisible being was watching my every move I would seek treatment. What is the difference between this being you describe and a creation of your own mind? It seems the only "evidence" you have to go on besides a 2,000 text is psychological in nature.
You assume that material process created mind and then mind created God. God created material and mind. I didn't create God. God created me. God created man in His own image. Man didn't create God in His image.
Limbo and the trinity are not akin. Limbo was created in the medeval times to control people in various ways. The church was under the power of the secualr world mostly by that time. This is a reaccuring problem in history with churches and organized releigion. That sooner or later the secualr world gets inside and thats how we got the crusades and what not. People were not even allowed to read the bible in their own language. It is true that the word trinity does not appear in the bible. It is a term for the three parts of God that Do appear in the bible. The Father the Son and the Holy Ghost (who you probably blasphemed on video for Dawkins Blesphemy challenge).Desperation is the unforgivable sin because there is always hope in Jesus Christ. It is a doctrine well founded on and in scripture. The fact that you bring that up betrays that you are just beggining in your bible debunking journey. Listen, I know people and I got a couple to post on this blog, but these people, there grounded, and people stear clear of them. That's the way it is. We are not all idiots. Like I said, if you entered into a debat with one of thes people, well, if anyone on this site entered into a debate with them, well... You are all amatures. But so am I and that's why I'm here. There are ways to verify our beliefs and that is by believing them and living them.That I and other Christians are crazy is rediculous. That I should seek treatment makes you sound like "The Good Man". (Gee I wonder who that was). Like a glove. Many Christians function in society, many of them function much better than you OR I do. I know a Christian who is a head administrator at a Psychiactric Hospital. So, your claim that Christians are crazy goes out the door. And you want to know why it goes out the door? Because as I said, real Christians, who are alive are living lives based on these beliefs, prove you all wrong. Keep Practising.
Anonymous said:God created material and mind....All you or any Christian has to do is provide some credible evidence to support that claim. If your "grounded" friends have good evidence, then let's hear it. There are ways to verify our beliefs and that is by believing them...That's like saying the Bible is true because it says its true. Again, bring on the corroborating evidence.That I and other Christians are crazy is rediculous.You're missing the point, which is there is no difference between an undetectable being and a mental construct. You can't use personal psychological phenomena to "prove" the existence of this undetectable being.
"You're missing the point, which is there is no difference between an undetectable being and a mental construct. You can't use personal psychological phenomena to "prove" the existence of this undetectable being."Neither can you use it to disprove the existence of an undetectable being.God may perceived as a mental contstruct but that does not mean that God is only a mental construct. Everything is perceived as a mental construct. Everyone.What is real? What is matterreality? You say you are a free thinker and that Christians have closed minds. Yet you limit yourself to what you can feel and see and touch, to what you can understand, even though there are many things beyond your understanding and perception that you just have not experienced yet and there are things you may not ever experience, try thinking of a color you have never seen before? You can not, it does not mean that it does not exist. Their are colors on the spectrum that we can not see. By believing in The Gospel and living it, this is how you are able to perceive it, through other people, becasue God is in us. And we need to let him reveal himself to others through us, that is why when you help others you are serving God. Also, your sences can fool you, don't beleive everything you see or hear, I know you don't because you are a skeptic, yet you use those same senses which you distrust as a way to debate the existence of God. Come on man! Who ya foolin here? Only yourself. We believe, we have faith, we have seen God in our lives, we have shown God to other people through our lives. Science is not perfect, it is always based on conceptual schemes, and often sciecne is the founder of dogma not the remover of it. Conceptual schemes. Look the term up and you will be surpirsed. Faith brother, Faith, not blind Faith, becasue our Faith has been tested and has seen us through hard times. We are like scientists as well, our faith has been tested. Tested in real life, not in a controlled enviroment, real life situations, and that is unpredictable, that is real life. FAITH. Live It!
Anonymous said:Neither can you use it to disprove the existence of an undetectable being.The burden of proof is on you, you're the one making the extraordinary claim.our Faith has been tested and has seen us through hard timesAnonymous, you're saying Christian beliefs provide comfort and support for believers. That's fine, Muslims no doubt enjoy the same benefits from their religion, but it doesn't prove god actually exists.
"The burden of proof is on you, you're the one making the extraordinary claim."Sorry brother, wrong again, this is a Christian debunking blog not a Christian Proof blog. The burden of proof lies with you and yours. Godd luck with that. Have a nice life trying to take away peoples faith. It's going to turnyou into a bitter soul I'm afraid. You sure you really want to go down that path? There are many other things you can focus on. I don't know about muslims so I can't really say anything about them. I have not studied their religion. It is based on Christianity I know that. God is in all of our lives whether we believe in him or not. Extraordinary claim? Well yes it is. Thank-you. The proof is in the pudding.Get out while you still can, before your just another one of these old sour wind bags full of too much hot air. Your all muck rakers, your experts on B.S. and alll that's wrong with the world.If life were a sunday drive down the highway you all would spend the trip looking at all the garbage and road kill you passed by, while the rest of us would be watching the sky, clouds and trees.
"If life were a sunday drive down the highway you all would spend the trip looking at all the garbage and road kill you passed by, while the rest of us would be watching the sky, clouds and trees."That's not fair, their is beauty even in the "junk".
Anonymous -Hand waving is not evidence.
"Hand waving is not evidence."Whatever that means. See? it's all ready happening to you. Maybe its too late for you. YOU ALL need to prove without a reasonable doubt that the Christ is false. The burden of proof is on you. Not me, I know he is true. I do not have to prove it to you. Jesus never told his desciples to go out and prove to people that he existed, he told us to be witnesses and to testify on his behalf.You can never prove that Christ is false little nicky. That is why you are going to grow into a bitter old man who will look back on the way he wated his life trying to dsiporve something that is impossible to disprove.Christians are not called to defend their beleifs against criticism. You are the ones calling us liars and delusional. PROVE IT!!!!! NOW!!!!PROVE IT RIGHT NOW!!! ANY ONE OF YOUR WORMS!!!! PROVE IT RIGHT NOW!!!! WITHOUT A REASONABLE DOUBT!!! PROVE THAT CHRIST IS FALSE!!!NONE OF YOU CAN!!! GO AHEAD ARGUE WITH THAT STATEMENT!!!NONE OF YOU CAN PROVE THAT CHRIST IS FALSE!!!YOU ARE ALL LIARS AND DECEIVERS USING BOGUS STUDIES AND CLAP TRAP ARGUMENTS!!! YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE SAME LAZINESS OF MIND AND IGNORANCE THAT YOU ACCUSE CHRISTIANS OF!!!I FEEL SOORY FOR ALL FO YOU!!!
Anon, as you know proving or disproving the existence of an undetectable being is an impossible task. However believers often make claims regarding such things as the power of prayer, faith healing, prediction of future events, and occurrence of miracles. These things can be examined, and some articles and studies have been published. For example:Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit populationStudy of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patientsThe effect of spiritual beliefs on outcome from illness.article on faith healingJames Randi's scorecard on various end-time prophesiesA few studies of prayer have reported a positive effect, but most show prayer does not help patients get better. It is certainly possible that a spiritual realm exists outside of the human imagination, but if it does exist and interacts with our world then we can study it, and so far the evidence is not very compelling.
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