These Are The Rules!

Enlarge it here. Link

If this happened wouldn't it be horrible? But this is indeed possible since a Calvinist doesn't have access to God's secretive will. After all, if we here at DC were never Christians in the first place, then how does any Calvinist know he is among the elect? And how can a Calvinist truly praise such a terrible God as this?

16 comments:

Rich said...

This is one of those beliefs that I really have to question. If it doesn't matter what you do, because your chosen to be one of God's elect or not, why bother trying to learn and follow any of the bible teachings at all? And precisely how is it that for God's glory someone is sent to an everlasting punishment? I don't see the glory in that.

Bruce said...

And precisely how is it that for God's glory someone is sent to an everlasting punishment?

Ahh, but who are we mere mortals to question the righteousness of God? Obviously, God knows better than any of us why some of his faithfully devoted followers get the shaft.

Maybe heaven isn't all that big and has a maximum capacity seating limit? Maybe the Afterworld Softball League is too lopsided and the commissioner is forcing God to give up some of his best players to Satan? Maybe God does play dice and they just got the short end of the stick?

As with everything else in life, whatever the answer may be, I'm sure we'll find it somewhere in the Bible.

Agnosis said...

To be fair to Calvinism, it holds up God's wrathful holiness and justice to such a degree that the damned are illustrations of God's hatred for sin and glorify his purity or holiness. Now I didn't say it was fair to humans, just want to give the accused a fair definition. I just wrote about this at my site. What I don't get is the opposite side of the coin: Why is a deconvert assumed to be non-elect when they may have shown so much fruit previously.

Anonymous said...

It became fairly obvious to me after briefly looking at this blog that the contributors are still fundamentalists and apologists, just ones who have taken up arguing for contrary positions. There's very little difference from listening to the Baptist pastor down the street.

You may not agree with my assessment, but that is how it strikes me.

John W. Loftus said...

Timotheos, where does the Baptist preacher down the street provide references for his people to see the best of the opposing side? We provide links in our sidebar to Christian sites that disagree with us, and we allow any intelligent Christian comment.

This Blog has a purpose and it's expressed above. So we argue our case in accordance with that purpose. But we don't indoctrinate. We educate. Take a second look here at the many Blog entries and see for yourself. Then get back to us. Tell us how many Blog entries you've actually read when you do.

I just visited YOUR site, and I didn't see us linked in YOUR siderbar, or any other skeptical links. You are obviously one sided in YOUR presentation. What's up with that?

Hallq said...

Timmy-

Can you please refer me to the post where John says that all who do not accept David Hume as their personal Lord and Savior will go to hell?

Jon Curry said...

Why is a deconvert assumed to be non-elect when they may have shown so much fruit previously.

Agnosis, as you may or may not know, some Christians are willing to say that even if you do turn away from Christianity you will be saved in the end. Total apostate heathen atheists could be going to heaven according to some people. I seem to recall Charles Stanley expressly defending that position in his book Eternal Security. I think Norman Geisler would say the same thing. Though we are faithless he remains faithful, because he cannot deny himself. We are saved not by works (continuing to believe) but by the faith in Christ that we had, if only briefly. Our sins are covered past, present, and future at that moment. So hopefully they're right and we'll all be in heaven. I know my faith was genuine.

Rich said...

Jon Curry,
I think 1cor 15:40-42 describes a heaven with differing degrees of Glory. This would seem to align with Christ teaching that there are many rooms in His Father's mansion. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead, not soley the faithful, and speaking of those different degrees of glory. I would say that the belief that we will all go to heaven has some merit within the bible. This also doesn't differentiate between believers and non believers. Resurrection of the believers would be but it says the dead, inclusive of all. See you there.

Agnosis said...

Jon,

I'm familiar with the position. In the end I too hope they're right, IF christianity turns out to be true. And as you may or may not know, there's also a very post facto interpretation based on 1 John that basically says if you leave it's because you were never really saved in the first place. It's amazing how divided christian theology is about things of such importance as the eternal state of your soul. My previous post was really dealing with the rhetorical aspect of the dialogue between the faithful and the apostates. In my experience more people take the 1 John position and not the one delineated by Stanley and Geisler when talking to deconverts.

Oh well, Merry Christmas to all (can I still say that here?)!!

Glenn Dixon said...

Many otherwise intelligent Christians point to scriptures that seem to support a Calvinist position, and just as many otherwise intelligent Christians can point to scriptures that seem to support an Armenian position. These positions (in this case, regarding eternal security and predestination) are at extreme opposite ends of the spectrum, yet can both be supported with scripture. The debate has been waged for at least 300 years with no conclusion in sight.

Is there any finer proof of the Bible being merely the words of men?

Michael Ejercito said...

If humans have not free will, then they are not accountable for their sins.

Anonymous said...

Maybe we don't have "free will", but we have choices, and we are accountable for them.

Anonymous said...

Calvinism came out of Roman Catholicism. Hence Calvinism just as it's mother Roman Catholicism is HEATHEN. Heathens like to make people miserable, they've always done that, they thrive on that stuff. Heathens murderer people all day long, Calvinism is more a spiritual murder than a physcial one. Please don't call these people Christians, they've never been, just like the authors of this site never been Christians. The reformation was a reformation of HEATHEN Roman Catholicism, hence the protestants are just as much heathen as the Roman Catholic. If you actually did some study of the matter you would see I am correct and a majority of the world is wrong. That's the problem with you atheists, just because a bunch of heathen say they are Christian doesn't mean they are. You did right here by questioning this heathen practice but you did wrong by identifying it as Christian just by their claims to be. You use the Bible to check and see if what they say is true. Anyway Atheism and Paganism are the worst murderers on this planet. Yet you take your murders and blame it on Christians because those heathen claim to be Christian. See how ridiculous you people are? Probably not.

Anonymous said...

Glenn Dixon:
Arminianism and Calvinism are not Christian. Both came from Heathen Roman Catholicism. Just as I wrote about. You guys don't debunk anything all you do is debunking pagans that call themselves Christian. In the future please refer to them as heathen or pagans. Same filth different titles :)

Tommy said...

So anonymous, are you saying that there were no Christians around 600 years ago when nearly everyone who professed to be a Christian was either a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox?

Anonymous said...

Maybe there just isn't a god. That makes the most sense.