Now What, Christian?
The year was 1995. I was just about to begin preaching school, and when so much was going right for me as I went through every day, tinged with anticipation of the good things that awaited me in the ministry, I was troubled. I wasn't just troubled, I was stumped, disarmed by what someone, an atheist, had asked me. I was an outgoing personal evangelist for ten months before this as I hit the ground running at my conversion to save a sin-sick, dying world. I was used to facing tough questions while "witnessing" to unbelievers, but as a certain young, un-intimidating, blond-haired man sat before me (an atheist whom my preaching friends thought I had a better chance at converting), I was stopped dead in my tracks.
They were wrong. Not only did I fail to convert him, but he asked a question that totally disarmed me and made us all squirm. I had no answer for it, no sharp retort that would make me, my friends, and our faith look cool and sophisticated.
"Well, I honestly don't believe in the bible or Jesus. I've tried but I can't, so what is one to do if they can't believe?" I had no answer for him. I had never faced this question before. After unsuccessfully making an argument from Pascal's Wager, I think I remember saying something to him, like "just keep trying and God will providentially show you."
"So in the mean time, if I die without believing, am I going to burn?", he asked. After a long pause, and with an embarrassed look on my face, I said, "Yes, you will, but I will pray for you that God will grant you the time to repent."
I felt terrible saying this. The atheist was very soft spoken. He was an almost speechless kid, not particularly well versed in argument or atheology. He just couldn't believe. Our church youth group had been stringing this guy along for a while, asking him to pray and sing and come to youth functions with us. He did, but it was all to no avail. We never could convert him.
Before our conversation ended, I was compelled to say something rude. I tried one last time to guilt-trip him with a disturbing, unsettling comment that would prod him into submission to the fearsome almighty. Since the Bible made it clear to "seek and ye shall find," and "to him who knocks, it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:7), and since Jesus and his word could never be wrong, this could only mean that this young man who struck me as nothing but sincere and forthright in his desire to believe, didn't really want to believe. His heart was captured by satan, and I had to help him break free. I knew I was really honoring my God by saying this to finish off our conversation, "Too bad you're choosing to burn in Hell then! 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.'" He sharply acknowledged my slightly aggressive tone and said, "So because I can't believe, I deserve to burn?" I backed off him with something soft, like, "Just remember that in the time it takes you to come to belief, you are still lost and will burn in hell if you die in the mean time, but I will keeping pray for you." I thought I could get him to believe out of fear. But instead of getting a rise out of him, he just calmly glanced around, collecting his thoughts, and said again, "Well, if I can't believe, I can't believe now, can I? Why should I burn for following my brain?" As the discussion continued, his honesty continued to shine right through, making me yet more uncomfortable. He kept on inquiring what to do since he couldn't believe.
Out of options and desperate to make a convert, I said again what so many preachers say, "Just try and live the Christian lifestyle first and faith will develop later." He just grinned, shook his head, assuring me it wouldn't work, got into his car, and drove off. I never saw him again, and I don't even remember his name, but I think of him from time to time.
My preaching friends and I jested amongst ourselves how sad it will be to see that man's poor soul burning in Hell. One of my friends said to me, "I hope the Lord causes something bad to happen to him so he will turn to God." I shutter to think how I actually found such a statement appropriate at the time!
Leaving this discussion, I was angry at myself for not having the convincing words to convert him. I was also angry at the preachers I looked up to for not giving me the proper arguments to win over a hungering soul. I lost out to the devil. I felt defeated and weak.
Just less than ten years later, I found myself in exactly this man's shoes. In the summer of 2003, my wife, still a staunch believer, commended my soul to hell. When we began to argue over my decision to leave the ministry, I asked my wife, "What am I supposed to do? I can't believe in theism anymore. I've tried." Her words, "Then you'll just have to go to hell!" Amazing the role reversals life puts us through, wouldn't you say?
To this very day, there is no Christian who can deal with this question. They are painfully disarmed by it, and I can see why. It hurts to be out of options, to see a problem and know you can't fix it.
I want to take this time and ask our Christian readers, what do we hellbound infidels do now that your apologetics have failed, and your arguments and testimonies proven ineffective in converting us back to the fold? We've prayed and cried, and reflected on our inner-selves. We've read and studied and meditated and reflected some more on our sinful, depraved consciences, now what? What if we are never providentially led back into God-belief as most atheists aren't? What if we breathe our last breaths as unbelievers, painfully thinking to ourselves, "But I can't believe!" What should we expect when we wake up in the next world? Fire? Torture? Darkness? Tumultuous agony for eternity? When all your quips and quotes, your testimonies and trilemmas, your apologetics and promises, have failed to pierce our targeted hearts, then what?
Should we be thinking about how in hell we'll finally have the faith we wanted here on Earth and finally got the answers we sought, but now it's too late? Should we be thinking about how we had the freewill to believe, if only we'd used it, even though we couldn't use it because we couldn't believe? Should we be thinking about what we will say to God, the angels, and our fellow condemned souls as we are ushered off to the empire of the damned?
Now what, Christian? What are we to do? Where are your answers now? What witnessing tool will you whip out to finish this job? What assurances, what hope can you give us?
(JH)
"Well, I honestly don't believe in the bible or Jesus. I've tried but I can't, so what is one to do if they can't believe?" I had no answer for him. I had never faced this question before. After unsuccessfully making an argument from Pascal's Wager, I think I remember saying something to him, like "just keep trying and God will providentially show you."
"So in the mean time, if I die without believing, am I going to burn?", he asked. After a long pause, and with an embarrassed look on my face, I said, "Yes, you will, but I will pray for you that God will grant you the time to repent."
I felt terrible saying this. The atheist was very soft spoken. He was an almost speechless kid, not particularly well versed in argument or atheology. He just couldn't believe. Our church youth group had been stringing this guy along for a while, asking him to pray and sing and come to youth functions with us. He did, but it was all to no avail. We never could convert him.
Before our conversation ended, I was compelled to say something rude. I tried one last time to guilt-trip him with a disturbing, unsettling comment that would prod him into submission to the fearsome almighty. Since the Bible made it clear to "seek and ye shall find," and "to him who knocks, it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:7), and since Jesus and his word could never be wrong, this could only mean that this young man who struck me as nothing but sincere and forthright in his desire to believe, didn't really want to believe. His heart was captured by satan, and I had to help him break free. I knew I was really honoring my God by saying this to finish off our conversation, "Too bad you're choosing to burn in Hell then! 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.'" He sharply acknowledged my slightly aggressive tone and said, "So because I can't believe, I deserve to burn?" I backed off him with something soft, like, "Just remember that in the time it takes you to come to belief, you are still lost and will burn in hell if you die in the mean time, but I will keeping pray for you." I thought I could get him to believe out of fear. But instead of getting a rise out of him, he just calmly glanced around, collecting his thoughts, and said again, "Well, if I can't believe, I can't believe now, can I? Why should I burn for following my brain?" As the discussion continued, his honesty continued to shine right through, making me yet more uncomfortable. He kept on inquiring what to do since he couldn't believe.
Out of options and desperate to make a convert, I said again what so many preachers say, "Just try and live the Christian lifestyle first and faith will develop later." He just grinned, shook his head, assuring me it wouldn't work, got into his car, and drove off. I never saw him again, and I don't even remember his name, but I think of him from time to time.
My preaching friends and I jested amongst ourselves how sad it will be to see that man's poor soul burning in Hell. One of my friends said to me, "I hope the Lord causes something bad to happen to him so he will turn to God." I shutter to think how I actually found such a statement appropriate at the time!
Leaving this discussion, I was angry at myself for not having the convincing words to convert him. I was also angry at the preachers I looked up to for not giving me the proper arguments to win over a hungering soul. I lost out to the devil. I felt defeated and weak.
Just less than ten years later, I found myself in exactly this man's shoes. In the summer of 2003, my wife, still a staunch believer, commended my soul to hell. When we began to argue over my decision to leave the ministry, I asked my wife, "What am I supposed to do? I can't believe in theism anymore. I've tried." Her words, "Then you'll just have to go to hell!" Amazing the role reversals life puts us through, wouldn't you say?
To this very day, there is no Christian who can deal with this question. They are painfully disarmed by it, and I can see why. It hurts to be out of options, to see a problem and know you can't fix it.
I want to take this time and ask our Christian readers, what do we hellbound infidels do now that your apologetics have failed, and your arguments and testimonies proven ineffective in converting us back to the fold? We've prayed and cried, and reflected on our inner-selves. We've read and studied and meditated and reflected some more on our sinful, depraved consciences, now what? What if we are never providentially led back into God-belief as most atheists aren't? What if we breathe our last breaths as unbelievers, painfully thinking to ourselves, "But I can't believe!" What should we expect when we wake up in the next world? Fire? Torture? Darkness? Tumultuous agony for eternity? When all your quips and quotes, your testimonies and trilemmas, your apologetics and promises, have failed to pierce our targeted hearts, then what?
Should we be thinking about how in hell we'll finally have the faith we wanted here on Earth and finally got the answers we sought, but now it's too late? Should we be thinking about how we had the freewill to believe, if only we'd used it, even though we couldn't use it because we couldn't believe? Should we be thinking about what we will say to God, the angels, and our fellow condemned souls as we are ushered off to the empire of the damned?
Now what, Christian? What are we to do? Where are your answers now? What witnessing tool will you whip out to finish this job? What assurances, what hope can you give us?
(JH)
31 comments:
I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that either you or the young man you tried to convert are going to hell, so I'm not sure how to answer your pointed question.
I can say that the brand of Christianity which you practiced seems particularly callous, and as such unequipped to meet the spiritual needs of people such as yourself and the man in your story.
My heart goes out to you and to him, because, as you've correctly noted, both of you have tried in all sincereity to believe, and have failed to do so. My heart also goes out to your wife, who must have taken your deconversion very hard indeed.
Personally I think that you have a deep and abiding faith. I'm not saying that to be patronizing, nor am I projecting my own theism on to you. Rather, I am expressing admiration at your ability to follow your own convictions, risking your vocation and the health of your marriage to follow your conscience. That is more faith than many Christians, especially those so willing to consign souls to hell just because of metaphysical disagreements, express.
Personally, I think that God's grace is sufficient for you, whether you believe in God or not. I can't imagine serving a God who feels in some way threatened by those who point out how inadequate our ideas of God are, even if they do so because they have stopped believeing in the God represented by those imperfect ideas.
But I suspect that I'm not the sort of Christian targeted by your post. Hopefully someone with a narrower definition of grace will in some meaningful way be impacted by your challenge.
Wow, great post and great comment as well. The inability to believe is part of what I went through as well. Looking back, I can see it was always my problem, and in order to combat it, I tried to push my faith further, playing the "If I could..."
If only I could pray more, put more into my worship, I would have a great faith. Yet no matter how much I put into it, I could not gain the faith I was looking for.
One thing that I think about is that if god is truly one of infinite love, how can hell exist? Isn't hell a limititation on something infinite?
Why would god create us capable of reason and then demand that we act in a manner contrary to our creation?
I came to the same spot you reached, where I could no longer go against my conscience.
For me it was a very liberating feeling to quit fighting my mind and finally embrace what my mind was telling me.
Frank, I read your blog response to my article. I didn't notice a place to respond to it, why?
I'm afraid you are too intolerant and fundamentalist in your mindset to objectively listen to anything anyone here says. I'll just say this...
First, I was a new convert at the time, only ten months old in the faith and not sagely in making converts. That's why I was preparing to head to seminary, which I later did.
Second, 4 different preachers and 6 lay-ministers had talked with the boy before me and none of them had any luck. We had already presented to him what we thought was convincing. He wasn't convinced. That's why we were out of answers and "stumped." But as far as "saving" people was concerned, I was pretty good at it.
Third, you said that we don't save people, but God does. That any believer knows. It's accomodative language (by me bringing the Gospel of the Lord, I was "saving" him). You make an issue out of absolutely nothing. Besides, you act like God doesn't want to save some and does others. Why didn't God open this man's heart? He wanted to believe and couldn't, yet your monstrous deity has no problem torturing people that HE refuses to enlighten!
One last thing, if anyone was ever "saved", I was. When my book, "The Bible's X Files" comes out early next year, you can read all about it and then tell me I wasn't what deluded religious people call "saved."
(JH)
I have to say after reading this and several other posts here I can see why you would deconvert from evangelical christianity. I have had some encounters similar to this in my younger years though I am a member of another faith. As a missionary my companion and I were invited by one we were teaching to attend her church, as we had asked her to attend ours. I believe fair is fair so we went with her. We were greeted nicely by the minister and then after the meeting started he gave us a good old your going to hell tongue lashing. I remembered feeling pretty bad that he had decided to take someone who also believed in Christ, as he professed, and treat us this way, or anyone for that matter. I don't recall this being the teachings of Christ. How is that humble? doesn't Paul give a pretty good desciption of charity? I think if a person is full of charity they wouldn't act this way to anyone. Isn't god the final judge? How can we, as humans, make a judgement that sends a person to hell? Where is the don't judge others? What if a person never has the opportunity in this life to here about Christ and accept him so they can be saved? I guess according to eveangelists they go to hell and burn? If this is true how can you say God is fair and just? They died unbelieving so they must have been selected by God to burn in hell because he needed to fill a quota? I can't say for sure that this is believed by evangelicals but from what I know it is. You can't possibly profess a just loving God and believe that even one person has to be sent to an eternity of burning for never having the chance to save himself. This whole "saved" doctrine is still fuzzy to me because I thought you had to work at it for your whole life, but apparently you can be saved and not need to do anything else. Like I said its not a blief I hold and I don't see that it follows Christs teachings.
Anyway Mr. Holman, I believe frank walton to be a little harsh on you here and i do believe you to be a seeker of truth and a good person, as far as I can tell, so I have a hard time believing that your good works won't be rewarded, isn't that taught in scripture?
Well, thank those of you who think I am a decent person and that I won't burn in fire, but Christianity teaches otherwise.
Plus, a lax, universalist version of Christianity has no urgency behind it. That is, a Christianity that is not required for salvation is just a helpful surplus of knowledge, nothing more. This minimizes it's importance altogether, unlike this passage...
"And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. Go out into the high ways and biways and compel them to come in" (Luke 14:23)
I just can't see how modern Christians find the authority to maintain their dignity and acceptance of unbelief. It isn't biblical.
People are changing, as are their religious attitudes. They are becoming more tolerant, just like overall modern cultural evolution demands.
(JH)
I asked my wife, "What am I supposed to do? I can't believe in theism anymore. I've tried." Her words, "Then you'll just have to go to hell!" Amazing the role reversals life puts us through, wouldn't you say?
Indeed. You were once prescribing hellfire for peoples' woes, and now you find yourself receiving it.
To this very day, there is no Christian who can deal with this question. They are painfully disarmed by it, and I can see why. It hurts to be out of options, to see a problem and know you can't fix it.
The answer: nothing. Calvinists agree with me. THey say that only God could bring you to repentance. So what do you do now? Just keep living, and if you wind up in hell, there's not a goddam thing you could do about it, since God prepared you as a "vessel fit for destruction".
I think, JH, that there are too many variables to say that unbelief=burn in hell. What of those who live and never hear word one of christianity? They were set apart from the beginning to go to hell? So then that being true how does free will play in to it? If we have free will then we have to be able to choose for ourselves. If no free will, then God has already decided, regaurdless of what we do or believe, where we will be after death. Heaven and Hell are only 2 choices, so what of the kingdoms that paul speaks of, telestial, terresteral, and celestial? Which one of those is heaven and which is hell? Is he talking about real places? When Christ died, and before he was resurected he visited the spirits in prison. Was this the hell we speak of?
My point is we don't seem to have a good understanding of life after death here. I understand that there are those called sons of perdition who will live with satan in Hell. Then there are three degrees of glory, heaven, that the rest are earning (theres that word thar evangelists hate). One the glory of the sun, celestial, one the glory of the moon, terresteral, and the other the glory of the stars, telestial. Even the teletial kingdom is a kingdom of heaven, not hell. It takes alot to be a son of perdition, Cain comes to mind. While unbelief won't get you into the celestial kingdom it won't make you a son of perdition.
The other thing is our sins have to be paid for, wether we pay for them or use Christs atonement(preferable) to pay for them, or to satisfy the demands of justice. So if suffering for sin is enough to make God bleed from every pour then it must be like an unquichable fire and all that hell is described as.
Sandalstraps, just because you can't imagine God being so cruel as to condemn someone who didn't believe, doesn't mean that scripture says otherwise.
I see a pattern developing here at DbC. Inability to believe is far more common than anyone had thought.
Evangelicals seem think of beliefs as derived from some motive. Believe so you won't burn, disbelieve so you can smoke dope and party. Once you are bitten by the rationality bug, there's no "so" to belief anymore. You either have reasons (as opposed to motives) to believe something, or you say you don't know.
John,
I have tried to engage Frank Walton in discussion via emial. I think he is only interested in smug dogmatic self riteousness.
He told me he doesn't allow responses on his blog because allegedly some atheists were posting "inappropriate and pornagraphic material." I think the real reason is he has no interest in dialogue.
Whenever I read posts on this site, I am reminded of Luke 8:5-15 (parable of the sower). Particulary, verse 13, "They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." There is an excellent exposition in the "Way of the Master" series, on 'back-sliders'.
The question often asked is, "Why do people back-slide?"
The answer is, "They have no roots."
What are roots, here? The roots of faith are not blind belief. Not a feeling. They develop from contrition, repentance, humility.
Contrition - not just guilt, a realization of what you have done that is disgusting to God. We all have things we are not proud of (or at least shouldn't be :). God can forgive anything, really. But you must admit it was wrong (no excuses or rationalizations).
Repentance - a promise to turn away from sin. This is an internal change; from a sinner, to a believer who stumbles.
Another relevant passage is James 4:6 "Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
When reading the Bible, do so with humility: say "God, I cannot understand you, help me to understand." Don't say, "I am smart. I can figure this out."
Don't substitute religious procedures for real, inward change.
Nedbrek, I appreciate your humble and direct way of trying to answer my challenge, but you have not hit it head on.
I once agreed with you, but now know that I don't need a savior. How do you convince someone who is like I am now, whether they've been religious or not? Anyone who already accepts the scriptures and the depraved concept of sin has no problem with what you're saying. The problem is showing someone that from a naturalist's perspective who doesn't agree with you. You and I are just like any other animal. We do things, some things we call good and others we call bad, but for natural reasons. I don't believe I am a sinner. I detest a doctrine that calls a human animal a vile creature worthy of torment. That is exactly what you are saying.
When you tell me to read the bible with humility and ask God to help me understand it, do you really not think I've tried that? After nine years in the ministry, how wouldn't I have? I'm afraid, despite your sincerity, you have no good answer.
(JH)
I cannot convince you. God respects your free will. You will never find conclusive proof of God, that would deny you the choice.
I do not envy you. 2 Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Having once felt the fool, it is that much harder to once again admit to foolishness and make a change.
No one is worthy of torment, God's will is for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."). That is not to deny that the possibility of torment is real.
I am saying that humans were once good, but have fallen. We see the good and the potential for good (all cultures agree on certain goods). But evil is there. Evil is real, and it is a power greater than us. But less than God.
nedbrek said...
I cannot convince you. God respects your free will. You will never find conclusive proof of God, that would deny you the choice.
My reply;
Nevermind for now that God always violates freewill by strengthening, guiding and providentially helping his people as per the words of scripture, and nevermind now how freewill does not exist. Your words tell me nothing. Well, they tell me one thing...it tells me that your god is like an abusive husband who says to those he is "forced" to beat, "Look what you made me do!" Like a true guilt-monger, he always puts the blame back on poor, weak, decrepid humanity!
I do not envy you. 2 Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Having once felt the fool, it is that much harder to once again admit to foolishness and make a change.
My reply;
This doesn't help me. I wanted, like all believers do, to remain faithful. Problem is, it would be an act. It would mean nothing. All you are doing is what I did, repeating the spooky, threatening warning of your god. Doesn't help.
No one is worthy of torment, God's will is for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."). That is not to deny that the possibility of torment is real.
My reply;
What are you talking about? Your god himself created a place of torment for wayward souls. He himself created an evil angel that started all this troubled. It falls on him, not on powerless creatures who didn't know any better. Your god also created immortal natures that cannot just die like cats and dogs. They must be around to suffer. Instead of allowing the faithful to be rewarded and the unfaithful to sleep in death, he made them suffer. Why make them suffer? Why make them suffer forever? This demonstrates the tyrannical nature of any god who would demand damnation for disbelief (or for any other reason for that matter). I can't anymore believe in your god than you can in Santa Claus...now wouldn't it be cruel if a deity's representative came along and said, "unless you believe in Santa, you will burn!"? Of course it would. You cannot believe what you don't believe.
I am saying that humans were once good, but have fallen. We see the good and the potential for good (all cultures agree on certain goods). But evil is there. Evil is real, and it is a power greater than us. But less than God.
My reply;
OK, I agree that there is evil, but so what? Evil is natural. A dog who takes meet from another against pack ordinances is evil to it's kind, but I don't want to torture violators. Besides, the things you consider evil are not evil at all. WE would agree on many moral evils, but never on torture. Your contention that mankind was once pure is laughable. Mankind has always been just like our animal kindred. You take what is good and do away with the bad, and that's it! But you are trying to justify a god who threatens unbelievers, who is a bully who offers the bribe of a reward for good and threats for the bad. That is not only a morally inferior system of morals, but very cruel.
Do you see how bad this is getting? You have no way to instill faith, no way to overturn the irrationality that comes in your belief system, so you make excuses and leave all the thinkers behind as though we are "choosing" damnation. Not true. I was well paid, well loved, and dedicated as a minister. No way I would have left had the logical problems not been there. I prayed and cried and begged to find the strength to remain, but it never came.
Of course, I know it isn't pleasant to think about so you'd rather accuse me of being sinful and hard-hearted than openminded, because otherwise that would mean your religiou system is to blame for my departure. That's too uncomfortable for you to consider. I don't blame you. Go on thinking what eases your mind.
(JH)
JH: I'm responding to your original post. I take from your post that you're an atheist, which means (to the best of my understanding) that you don't believe in the metaphysical. I'm curious as to why you're asking what will happen when you "wake up in the next world" when your world-view does not include a "next world." Again, If I've mis-interpreted something from your post or am applying an incorrect definition please let me know. Thanks.
Joe, I'm not really sure what to say. I will read your web page, and see what specifically has troubled you so much.
Is it the existance of Hell that troubles you? God is not what we make Him. He is what He says He is, and we struggle to deal with that. Justice demands punishment for those who do wrong. It is much better than the justice of this world.
I wouldn't say you are going to burn. Only God knows that, and Jesus will judge. We are called to spread the Good News, and save people. To give certainty of salvation.
To say that God threatens us is unfair. If you were playing in traffic, and I said "Come away from there!", would you think I was trying to control you?
The Puritans had a doctrine known as "Seeking", which is particularly related to this type of situation. John Gerstner discusses it in his 3 Vol work The Rational Biblical Theology of Jonathan Edwards.
Hi, My name Is Igor Dimovski, from Macedonia (Eastern Europe). I just want to make two short comments (sorry if there are mistakes in my english). Firstly, correct exegesis (if we can use that in today's postmodern sentiment) of the Bible doesn't necessary lead to hell (eternal torture in flames). One of my (MPhil) mentors even said that the doctrine of hell should not be considered a cornerstone of Christian (not evangelical though) orthodoxy. Even many evangelical today are accepting the doctrine of annihilation (I don't want to go deep into this, I am just saying that the doctrine of hell is not clearly taught in the Bible nor is accepted as the absolute proof of one's, or, for that matter, Church's orthodoxy). Secondly, I enjoyed your post a lot, and I have to admit that I, as a Christian, have similar problems from time to time, fighting with the feelings of disbelief. What, I think, is the answer to this problem is, that we should not put so much trust in our feelings. I want to believe, and if I sometimes feel that I don't it is, probably, the problem of our human nature (just see Rom. 7) Our faith should not be based (primarily) on our emotions or feelings. I believe in God, and I accept His word. I think that "he" knows about my feelings and problems, and I will not bother myself what will happen or when will my faith come back. If it doesn't come back, then there is no God and our illusion should go away as soon as possible (and we should try to explain our "faith" in sociological and psychological terms). That's it. Thank you very much for your comments (especially that of Mr Baker, the sandalman).
Joe,
Could I inquire if you ever actually believed in hell or heaven? What *reason* does the bible provide that unbelievers will be cast into hell? I will gladly answer your question, but first must know your presuppositions.
Just because a place exsists does that mean it has to be used? God wants all saved but knows that is impossible because of our free will.
"Nevermind for now that God always violates freewill by strengthening, guiding and providentially helping his people as per the words of scripture, and nevermind now how freewill does not exist."
If free will doesn't exstst then howcome evil does? Are you saying that we are unable to choose to do what we want? That we are compelled and forced to do evil and good by someone? Because it seems to me that I always have a choice to make about my actions, always. I can do or say whatever I want, that isn't free will?
"Your god himself created a place of torment for wayward souls. He himself created an evil angel that started all this troubled. It falls on him, not on powerless creatures who didn't know any better."
That angel was one of his children that chose to be evil, not created evil, and that choice falls on lucifer not God. Are you implying that you need to be blamed for your childrens actions? it's the same.
"OK, I agree that there is evil, but so what? Evil is natural. A dog who takes meet from another against pack ordinances is evil to it's kind, but I don't want to torture violators. Besides, the things you consider evil are not evil at all. WE would agree on many moral evils, but never on torture. Your contention that mankind was once pure is laughable. Mankind has always been just like our animal kindred. You take what is good and do away with the bad, and that's it! But you are trying to justify a god who threatens unbelievers, who is a bully who offers the bribe of a reward for good and threats for the bad. That is not only a morally inferior system of morals, but very cruel."
So what your saying is that we should do away with the cruel and morally wrong prisons and jails? They are meant for punishment of wrongdoers. Let everyone who is there go free and never have a consequence for our choices? Evil is natural so we should follow our animal kindreds example and let all alone, child molesters, rapists, murderers, thiefs? Its very natural for them and they shouldn't be punished for their actions, it's their nature. Or do you support prisons? You can't support one and reject the other. If you say that prison and punishment for breaking the law is ok then you can't say punishment and the exsistance of hell is because God is tyranical. That puts you in the same boat, your tyranical mind wants to punish the lawbreakers but lash out at a God who would do the same. You should be openly opposing punishment for crime and the very law we have in this country because it shows and evil and tyranical poeple who would create such a thing. No more law to worry about, we will all live perfectly happy without having to worry about what will happen if we slip up and drive drunk and kill a few people, it's just my nature to do that. I mean what kind of horrid person would consider making laws and then punish people who don't obey them?
"Do you see how bad this is getting? You have no way to instill faith, no way to overturn the irrationality that comes in your belief system, so you make excuses and leave all the thinkers behind as though we are "choosing" damnation."
Do you see how bad the alternative is? and you call my belief system irrational. A system that is meant for those to learn good from bad and choose to be good. To have rewards and punishments to be fair to all. If there are no punishments how is that fair to those who choose to be good? Where does the demand for justice come into play? Do we only reward the good and then also reward the bad with the same reward? Eat, drink and be marry for tomorrow we die and it won't matter what we've done because we'll all get the same reward.
"Of course, I know it isn't pleasant to think about so you'd rather accuse me of being sinful and hard-hearted than openminded, because otherwise that would mean your religiou system is to blame for my departure. That's too uncomfortable for you to consider. I don't blame you. Go on thinking what eases your mind."
Why would It ease my mind that someone stopped beliving in God? Some may think it was a religious system that caused your departure but I think it was your own choices that lead you away.
ok, I just don't have the time to answer everyone's comments here. Please go to my website or my forums for that, but let me just say that nothing anyone is saying is facing up to the gravity of what is presented in the article. The Bibles teaches damnation for disbelief (Mark 16:15-16). It teaches that God will destroy sinners in a place called Hell (Luke 12:4-5). That means God created the Hell (whether or not the fire is literal doesn't matter. What matters is, there will be torture for unbelievers). You can't get god off the hook and say he isn't threatening us by saying that the equivalent of his statements (threats) are "Come out of the street." to keep us from getting hit by a car. He created this Hell and he has the power to never have allowed sin to manifest in the first place, yet people like me exist and are headed for hell to suffer. You cannot rectify this problem.
(JH)
You are the one in control of your own destiny, not God. The choices are laid before you to make. He did make hell and it was for those who sin, but that doesn't release you from your own choices. You can't pass the blame onto someone. You are not controlled by anyone. I am not tryig to release God from any blame. That power to never let sin maniferst would mean 100% control over every thought and action. That's what you want?
Rich said...
You are the one in control of your own destiny, not God. The choices are laid before you to make. He did make hell and it was for those who sin, but that doesn't release you from your own choices. You can't pass the blame onto someone. You are not controlled by anyone. I am not tryig to release God from any blame. That power to never let sin maniferst would mean 100% control over every thought and action. That's what you want?
My Reply;
But your god set it up so that bad choices could result in Hell (even if I agreed with you that there was freewill).
By your own admission, he created a hell, and obviously an angel who would fall away, taking others with him. God sees nothing wrong with torture. You just admitted it.
As I said, you try and put it off on man like a wifebeater who beats his wife, "Look what you made me do!" He doesn't see fit to lead people only to him, which he could do without miracles and intervening in someone's mind. Besides, everytime God gives a Christian strength through the spirit (Eph. 3:16-17) he is violating his own "freewill" of yours anyway, to be consistent with your "100% control" position. He allows us to make mistakes that will cause us to eternally suffer. That is what I mean by a tyrant. He is a tyrant who sees nothing wrong with torture.
You just ignore the fact that many of us have tried to believe. I used to and no longer can. He did not give me the strength or guidance to see my way around my damnation, which I wanted to do. I didn't want to reject him. That was the point of my article. You can provide no answers to someone who CAN'T believe. You can't just keep putting it back on me saying, "You have freewill." Fact is, I (and my fellow ex-believers here) couldn't beieve, and you can't face that.
(JH)
Actually I can accept the fact that you can't believe. thats ok with me. you say you have no free will yet here you are able to choose to believe or not, able to freely sin or not. While god knew we would sin he also made it possible to, even though we sin, be washed clean from Christ's attonement. This is not a tyrant as you call him but someone who provided a way for everyone to CHOOSE to accept Christ and use his sacrifice to overcome the bonds of sin and hell. So because punishment exists that means God sees nothing wrong with it? Kind of tough to back up that stance. (I never admitted that God sees nothing wrong with torture by the way just that there is a price to pay for sin and torture is your term not mine.) What do you do about the demands of justice for sin? Someone has to pay the price for the choice. Christ already did so that we didn't have to and won't have to go to hell and suffer ourselves for those bad choices.
"As I said, you try and put it off on man like a wifebeater who beats his wife, "Look what you made me do!" He doesn't see fit to lead people only to him, which he could do without miracles and intervening in someone's mind."
Interesting that you bring this up because isn't this the problem here, that you need to see a show of force, of God's power, some evidence that he exsists, before you will believe? It is already laid out before you the path to take to find God and it is without miracles and that is the preferred method. He wants you to believe and live rightiously without physical evidence of his exsistance.
"Besides, everytime God gives a Christian strength through the spirit (Eph. 3:16-17) he is violating his own "freewill" of yours anyway, to be consistent with your "100% control" position."
How is this a violation of free will? Because you are strengthened through the spirit? This is not a violation of free will because you don't have to recieve any help or intervention from God. Even using your position on God is that of free will. You are not saying he doesn't exsist only that he is tyranical and evil, but yet he allows you of your own choice, by admission, to speak out against him and not follow his bible. Tell me how that isn't free will? You can't have the position that no free will exsist while you exhibit free will in not choosing to follow God. The fact is he does allow us to make mistakes and he also gave us the way to correct those mistakes. He wants us to learn the consequences of good and bad choices so we understand why to choose good over bad. You can't possible have an understanding of good without experiencing bad, of joy without experiencing pain. You only know of pain because you have suffered. These experiences here are for the better good because we will gain knowledge about good and bad that can only be gained through making choices and living with consequences.
"You just ignore the fact that many of us have tried to believe. I used to and no longer can. He did not give me the strength or guidance to see my way around my damnation, which I wanted to do. I didn't want to reject him. That was the point of my article. You can provide no answers to someone who CAN'T believe. You can't just keep putting it back on me saying, "You have freewill." Fact is, I (and my fellow ex-believers here) couldn't beieve, and you can't face that."
Iam not ignoring anything, I understand that you have believed before and now no longer feel that you have the ability(can't) to believe again. I can keep putting it back on you because that's where it belongs. You have the ability(can) to control your destiny. You know what awaits you, heaven or hell, and you still and always will have that freedom to choose the direction your life will take you. While you may want to blame God for your current status he is ot to blame because you made the choices that landed you here, at being athiest. A strengthening of the spirit, as you mentioned before is God trying to lead you toward him, no compell you beyond control(no free will) to do what he says.
You still fail to acknowledge that what you want to happen, no sin, evil, everyone exist without pain and suffering, can only be accomplished by God exherting 100% control over us. I want none of that by the way, I don't like pain, I would rather not suffer, but I understand that it has to be that way for me to truely understand what God is like. I cna understand why it is important to choose right and not sin. Sin is what brings us pain and suffering. When you do a good deed for your neighbor, read a book to your child and rock them to sleep, help someone in need, don't you feel good inside? And to the contrary, when you do things that you know are not right you don't feel to good about yourself. This is what I feel being a believer and since you correctly think that an athiest can have the same morals as a believer then I think you must have the same conscience as I do.
All your good deeds will be counted to your favor regaurdless of belief. You do good things without believing n God and that of coarse is commendable. You just only lack the ability to be forgiven of the sins and not end up in a place to recieve the punishment for you unrepented sins(hell).
By ability to be forgiven I meant that you feel you have no ability to believe. The ability for you to be forgiven of sin will always exsist but you have to choose to follow Christ and use his attoning sacrifice to be forgiven. I thought after rereading that I should clarify that statement.
Joe,
As I said before, this type of question has been answered before by the Puritans, but since I doubt you will look up John Gerstner, Edwards, Hooker, et al, then I will explain a bit. This assumes that you believe that God exists but cannot believe in Him.
Congregants would ask the Puritan pastor at the end of services, "But what if I can't just believe? I believe that God exists but can't trust in Christ." The Puritan pastor would respond that though you may not be able to believe, you can still *do* the things that God has commanded. For instance, you can study your Bible instead of watching porn (or whatever else), go to church rather than going to the bar, be faithful to your wife, do everything to the best of your ability, etc. Of course, he was advised not to do all these things hypocritically.
Even though you do these 'good' things, they are still sin since not done out of a love for God. But these sins are not as bad as the following: if I went to bar when I had the opportunity to go to church, look at porn rather than read the Bible, etc. With these latter sins, not only am I sinning against God because I don't do these out of a love for Him, but I'm also sinning in the actual practice of wickedness, which entails a greater punishment. I would also be giving up the opportunity that I have.
Since God uses means to accomplish His ends, it would be more likely to come to belief if one were attending the preaching of the Word, et al. than not doing any of these things.
This fits in well with the Calvinistic outlook of the depravity of man.
This is an extremely rough sketch as I'm a bit hurried.
OK, I won't respond to preaching and silliness, but I'll say this...
If things must be done to obey God without faith, then that is hypocritical! You can't have it both ways! The reasoning of you believers is ridiculous. Just admit you have no answer for these situations.
When someone can't believe, they can't believe! All they can do is prepare themselves for Hell.
(JH)
Joe said, "OK, I won't respond to preaching and silliness, but I'll say this..."
Well you asked what you are to do at the end of your entry, and I told you. Not sure how that deserves this remark. What did you think people were going to say to you?
Joe said, "If things must be done to obey God without faith, then that is hypocritical! You can't have it both ways! The reasoning of you believers is ridiculous. Just admit you have no answer for these situations."
Umm that's why I prefaced what I said that a 'seeker' (in this sense of the word) is not to 'pretend' as if he's a believer. He does the things mentioned *knowing* that he is not a Christian and *knowing* that he doesn't have faith, so I don't see how that position can be accused of promoting hypocrisy.
By the way, who is guilty and deserving of more punishment according to Jesus - Tyre and Sidon or Sodom and Gomorrah?
Joe said, "When someone can't believe, they can't believe! All they can do is prepare themselves for Hell."
And that's exactly my point, but don't forget the nuances and the assumptions of the position above.
Not exactly sure how your blog entry even constitutes an objection.
As I read the bible (and many Evangelicals and others agree with this reading), there is no hell (as burning place). There are several reasons: 1) Only God is immortal (Tim 6:16 etc.) and, consequently, there is no immortal soul (Old Testament has many references for this one). 2) Hell is eternal perpetuation of sin - idea not seen in the Bible. 3) God is love and "he" acts justly - consequently, there is no hell for that goes against the ontological goodness and functional justice of God. Hell is (old A. Harnack was right) just a Christianized Hellenism (not to say paganism). There are few excellent monographs on this subject (against the hell dogma and for annihilationism). I don't know their names right now, but I can look for them if needed. Thanks and God bless.
p.s. I am so sorry that your emotions do not allow you to believe in God. I know how you feel. Igor, Macedonia.
The one thing left untouched here is if you, Joe, reject law and consequences, or only when it applies to a God? I would think that with your position that God is tyrant and evil because he has punishment for breaking his law that you should feel the same about any law and punishment for breaking the law. It seems to me to follow the view that society has as a whole that we want to skrt responability for our actions. They're genetic flaws that can't be controlled, or its just our animalistic nature. "Don't send me to hell because I am a rapist, you made me that way and I can't control it."
Interesting discussion. I'll like insight from the group on the following situation:
My son, now 21, recently embarked on a conversion to Catholicism. I was raised a Catholic, but not particularly observant as my mother became agnostic and we stopped going to Sunday school and church when I was 13-14. I married a Jewish woman and we had 2 sons, both raised Jewish, lots of Hebrew School, hundreds of trips to synagogues, bar mitzvahs, etc... Never once did I take them to church.
He enters college, shares a dorm suite with 3 guys, 2 of whom intend to go into the ministry, finds a very catholic girlfriend and the rest is history. Not only does he favor Catholicism, but he now firmly believes in demons, angels, Satan, etc...to the point where he has sprinkled holy water and salt on our bed “because of the evil forces that prevent us from embracing this conversion”. Astoundingly, he obtained these materials from the school chaplain after discussing these fears with him. Am I to understand that a school chaplain is supposed to feed these fears in the hopes of converting a troubled mixed-up kid?
Then I find out that his "friends" have gone to his place of summer employment (the local diner) several times over the summer at 2:00am to help him through his moments of religious doubt!!!. This smacks of cultism, even zealotry, to me, and I am sickened by the thought of him spending another semester, much less full year, with them.
As former evangelicals et al, what do you think of this situation and what do you propose we do? He tries to steer all our discussions on this to a theological discussion as to why Catholicism is right and true.
Instead of preaching hell and brimstone maybe you should have preached what Jesus taught - love thy neighbour as thyself, the grace of God and the fruits of the Spirit. You sound like you were a cult member touting for business, rather than a receiver of the Holy Spirit.
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